Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Lancebloke]

..... she is from England. She is British. That is what she answered.

Where did you come from originally.... ermm.... England.

Maybe she was just trying to ask about her cultural ancestry when would be African via the Caribbean but that isn't what she asked.

Yes, the outfit was probably causing some of the confusion but she answered the bloody question correctly. She isn't an immigrant, she wasn't born somewhere and moved when she was 2, she was born here so she is British.

[Mrs Figg]

If I was born in Nigeria, I would be a Nigerian citizen, but it doesn't make me African, and I can imagine if I wore a Morris Man or Pearly King costume with all the bells and whistles, people asking me, but really, where do you come from? Its not racist, its just getting to the bottom of reality.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ It is one of those things that is indeed particulary odd when you think of it the other way round- imagine my parents had emigrated to Africa a month before I was born, Id be a national of whatever african country it was, grow up white and ginger, and if I was like this lady be dressing all in tartan to honour my ancestory and getting annoyed at people for wanting to know where I was from, whilst not looking or dressing anything like an African!

Never really got the whole identifiying with where your ancestors are from thing, same in Amerca, whole load of folk putting themselves into little boxes like Afro-American, Latino-American and the like, then complaining because people put them in boxes and treat them differently! Makes no sense at all.

Id also take issue with the language used in this case, not by Lady whashername, that was just racially ignorant and a bit rude I suspect, more than anything deliberetly malicious, but rather the language used by the black woman in the press to describe the conversation, calling it an 'interogation' and 'abuse'. No it was neither- an interogation is bright light in the face, pliers pulling your teeth and fingernails out and electric jolts on your private parts whilst answers are demanded of you with force, its not an 80 year old Lady next to the volauvent table in a palace being a bit rude to you. Likiwise had the Lady opened with "What the f**k are you doing in my country you n****e f***er?" Thatd be racial abuse, being asked an awkward insenstive question a few times too many is just really annoying, rude and at most a little offensive, but its not abuse. It belittles actual real offensive behaviour when we equate mild forms of it with severe.}}

[Mrs Figg]

{{ It is one of those things that is indeed particulary odd when you think of it the other way round- imagine my parents had emigrated to Africa a month before I was born, Id be a national of whatever african country it was, grow up white and ginger, and if I was like this lady be dressing all in tartan to honour my ancestory and getting annoyed at people for wanting to know where I was from, whilst not looking or dressing anything like an African!

Never really got the whole identifiying with where your ancestors are from thing, same in Amerca, whole load of folk putting themselves into little boxes like Afro-American, Latino-American and the like, then complaining because people put them in boxes and treat them differently! Makes no sense at all.

Id also take issue with the language used in this case, not by Lady whashername, that was just racially ignorant and a bit rude I suspect, more than anything deliberetly malicious, but rather the language used by the black woman in the press to describe the conversation, calling it an 'interogation' and 'abuse'. No it was neither- an interogation is bright light in the face, pliers pulling your teeth and fingernails out and electric jolts on your private parts whilst answers are demanded of you with force, its not an 80 year old Lady next to the volauvent table in a palace being a bit rude to you. Likiwise had the Lady opened with "What the f**k are you doing in my country you n****e f***er?" Thatd be racial abuse, being asked an awkward insenstive question a few times too many is just really annoying, rude and at most a little offensive, but its not abuse. It belittles actual real offensive behaviour when we equate mild forms of it with severe.}}

Yep that's the way I look at it too. But its weirder than that. its like for example, I was born in Nigeria, and didn't dress myself up as an English Morris Dancer, but one of the ancient German tribes of Visigoths or Vandals, as this woman is from the Caribbean but cosplays as an African tribeswoman, its two steps of separation. The Palace made a massive mistake in apologising, and why couldn't it be handled privately, why did she have to go on every TV channel slandering an 80 year old woman. People are allowed to get their feelings hurt without destroying someone's reputation and lifelong job. I have to say that, worryingly for me, I am starting to despise the traditional Guardian reading Left, as it seems it will happily throw people to the wolves if you put one toe out of line. Predictably, that toad Farage went an Enoch Powell rant, but surely there is a sensible middle ground somewhere? cant find it though.

[Amarië]

Hold up. Am I seriously reading that it's her own fault for wearing the wrong clothes?

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Thats not what I meant, I stick to what I said in my original post, it was clearly racist. I wouldnt say it amounted to an interogation or abuse mind you but it was racist. Her african attire only compounded the confusion I'd say, it certainly isnt an excuse for it.

My later post was more general on how odd it seems to me to want to dress up in another countries cultural attire because your parents or grandparents came from there- that has always seemed weird to me. And as to folk who 'identify' as African this or that when they have as close a connection to Africa as I have has always struck me as really weird, especially when it all it does is to put yourself into a box with a label on it.

Mind you, and more controversely, on the subject of the wrong clothes I have never agreed with the view that women have no responsibility if they get unwanted attention whilst dressed in almost nothing in public. Maybe in some ideal world where humans are not often overruled by their instincts and emotional states and exist purely on mental choice it could work, but in the actual world there is truth to a certain degree in 'asking for it'. If I for example go into certain parts of Glasgow where there is a dense population o  Celtic supporting Irish republican catholic folk, wearing a rangers top I would fully expect to get stabbed at best for doing so. And if you then told folk I had been stabbed for doing so the most common reply I can guarantee you wouldget would be, "well stupid idiot he was asking for it." And theyd be right, I would have been as wearing that clothing in those circumstances is asking for trouble. This is a real thing in the world sadly. And I do think there is an inherent danger in teaching young women they can dress as they like and wear what they like and they will be fine as its their right to do so. It may be, just as its my right to wear whatever football top I like, but its still stupid in some circumstances. You wouldnt wear Lady Gagas meat dress for a stroll through a lion enclosure! }}}}

[Lancebloke]

Petty - I had the same argument with my other half a few weeks ago.

It isn't that I don't agree that women (and people in general) shouldn't be able to wear what they want, where they want and not fear for themselves but the truth of the matter is that they can't. And yes, this isn't limited just to women not wearing many clothes or even solely a clothes related argument at all.

There are plenty of places you wouldn't go and do certain things (e.g. espouse being gay in rural Afghanistan, celebrate your Jewishness at a neo-nazi closed doors party etc). You should be able to... but please don't!

And yes, it is dangerous to suggest to people that they can and too late to virtually signal about it later on when that person becomes a victim of something.

[Mrs Figg]

I think its more complicated than blaming her for choosing to wear African garb. I don't blame her, that would be absurd, everyone should be allowed to wear what they like, but as Petty and Lance said, there are consequences in the real world.
Personally I think in Ngosi's s case its all about lack of self confidence and feeling the need to hide behind a false persona. After all, its one thing to be an ordinary black woman from Hackney (with a bit of an inferiority complex, not to mention an agenda, and feeling of victimhood), and an princess from a made up stereotypical African kingdom with all the trappings such as beads and leopard prints. her garb was meant to be a status symbol and signifier of the exotic other which would transport her to a higher caste. She was armoured in African status. She on one hand wanted to be seen as non-English, on the other she wanted to insist she was British, there is a fundamental conflict there. When confronted with reality she got herself into an internal conflict, her first reaction being obfuscation and passive aggression. She could easily have said at the beginning British of West Indian decent but that would have shattered the fallacy. She was confronted by an aristocrat with maybe abrasive manner, although Lady Susan had 50 years of experience talking to people and what better ice breaker than 'where do you come from' its the classic thing everyone asks. There is nothing racist about it, why is it racist exactly? would it be racist if she had asked a Maori, Native American or Portugese? its not is it. The Palace meets people from all over the world, its their job to make people feel comfortable. But Marlene is a mate of the millionaire Meghan the vengeful grifter with the grotesque sense of victimhood. Marlene, who said that the Queen and Prince Philip were 'domestic abusers'. Why the fuck did she go to the Palace if she hates them? I think she wanted to make trouble, and wanted the whip hand, which the media gave her.

[Forest Shepherd]

lolol, what storm's a-brewing in this teapot? Some lady wore the wrong dress?

[Mrs Figg]

She didn't wear the wrong dress, she accused an old woman of racism, because if you weren't aware, according to the latest fashion for critical race theory taught in schools all white people are born with the original sin of racism and must be punished and made to give reparation for 200 year old actions. even if their ancestors were dirt poor people who worked down the mines or in hellish factories living in slums, dying of horrible diseases and didn't live past the age of 29, by all accounts they were all slave owning colonialist usurpers. The National Anthem must be banned, all the museum pieces must be given back, decolonise maths (that's a real thing) and we must bend the knee. Next up raising Liverpool to the ground because its buildings are racist and offends sensitive flowers.

[halfwise]

She runs an NGO which supports women of African and Caribbean affected by abuse, and was wearing African inflected clothing which I suppose reflects the women she works with.

She should have acknowledged that her clothing implied she was not British, but when she clearly said she WAS born in Britain, her questioner should have equally acknowledged that she was in fact British. It was the repeated implication that she wasn't British that put her at fault.

Yes, there is definitely over sensitivity to racial issues. My chinese friend recently got reported for asking to touch the hair of an african-American colleague, because she hadn't see that styling before. It's gone too far.

But in this incident I don't think she did anything wrong by publicly complaining about it because the questioning did cross a line. She didn't demand that she be fired or anything, just venting. I don't know how the dismissal was handled, but at 80 years old she probably was about due to be slid to the back anyway.

[Forest Shepherd]

She didn't wear the wrong dress, she accused an old woman of racism, because if you weren't aware, according to the latest fashion for critical race theory taught in schools all white people are born with the original sin of racism and must be punished and made to give reparation for 200 year old actions. even if their ancestors were dirt poor people who worked down the mines or in hellish factories living in slums, dying of horrible diseases and didn't live past the age of 29, by all accounts they were all slave owning colonialist usurpers. The National Anthem must be banned, all the museum pieces must be given back, decolonise maths (that's a real thing) and we must bend the knee. Next up raising Liverpool to the ground because its buildings are racist and offends sensitive flowers.

Ah, yes I've heard of such things. Just deport anybody who says that about your country and enjoy life.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ that is a bit drastic Forest lol. As too for me Figg is your own assement. I thought her words were racist and I dont remember any critical race theory when I was at school- and you have to admit the version of history we got taught was certainly biased. Hell here was even biased against Scottish history let alone Empire.

What we need is just some common middle ground thinking- in this case for instance if the black woman instead of going straight to offended had just been firm and either said "I've told you I am British by birth and if you dont accept that I find this line of questioning offensive" and walked away I'd have respect for her, alternatively she could, early in the conversation, have simply said "As I said I was born here I am British, however my parents were from the Carribean" and that would have resolved it too, instead almost her first reponse to being asked twice where she was from was a pretty snarky "I dont know they didnt keep records". Almost like she was looking for a fight rather than to deescalate matters. And yes the old woman was still in the wrong but clearly she had no idea she was so she was not going to deescalate it she wasnt aware her line of questioning was even offensive, I think thats clear from the transcript.

"She runs an NGO which supports women of African and Caribbean affected by abuse"- Halfy

Thats something I have the biggest issue with here, she belittles actually abuse with how she has spoken of this conversation in the press, she has called it abuse, described it as an interrogation and said it was a violation. All very charged words I feel should be used only in the appropriate circumstances, which someone in charge of a charity for domestically abused women you would think would be aware of and a lot more sensitive to. To use these terms to describe a conversation with an old lady in a peaceful setting seems to me a gross misuse and makes me wonder if she is suitable to run such a charity organisation. }}

[Mrs Figg]

Just thinking about the dress thing and the critical race thing getting out of control.

Firstly I think we have to be careful not to victim blame in the case of women being attacked because they were wearing a 'skimpy mini skirt'. That is the first line of defence of the attacker, 'she was asking for it'. That is not acceptable as an excuse in law any more thank goodness, but it would help women in vulnerable situations , say outside a nightclub pissed as a newt and rolling round the floor in pole dancing garb (sorry Newcastle, looking at you), if they thought about shit getting real. on the other hand if women are going to be attacked by a rapist it doesn't matter what she is wearing, she will be attacked regardless of dungarees and big Winter coat, or if she is middle aged, or not what could be described as your normal mini skirted 'victim'. Most women are attacked in the home anyway so that means less clothes and pyjamas, and stranger rape is less prevalent. Women should be allowed to wear what the heck they want but every woman is aware that mini skirts down dark streets is stupid. So don't do it.

As for CRT, its getting to the big brother barking mad phase where museums are cancelling themselves for being racist colonial abusers. Soon the British culture will be expunged from history ironically by racist anti-white bigots. Just listen to Douglas Murray wipe the smirk off the Tory twat.

[Forest Shepherd]

{{ that is a bit drastic Forest lol.}}

But effective

[Pettytyrant101]

[Mrs Figg]

So, those two royal grievance grifters have got their Netflix series out. it was marketed as the most scandalous revelations of the century, but all they revealed was the fact that she wasn't allowed to invite her niece, and the engagement interview was rehearsed. Wowzer! I hope Netflix thinks it got its moneys worth.

[Pettytyrant101]

[Mrs Figg]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Im not sure which part of this I enjoyed more. They have released state papers from 1999 relating to the Northern Ireland Parliament set up. In these the idea of the Parliament was likened to Star Trek boldly going where no man has gone before.
I love the way fiction can and does shape reality, its a weird feedback loop, where apsirations for humanity that encapsulate an idea can then lead back into a striving to bring about that idea in the world. The pen being indeed mightier than the sword and all that.

But the other thing I love about this story is that the the famous phrase, to boldly go...' is a split-infinitive, and the civil servants, the cream of the intellectual crop garnered from the finest universties in the land ('both of them' as Sir Humphrey would say) simply could not stand for such a vulgar American abuse of Her (at the time) Majesty's English. As a result of which they reworded it to the grammatically correct "to go where man has not gone before". }}

[Mrs Figg]

What the actual fucking hell. The Scottish police are now pandering the poor little nonce who is offended by being called a pedo. Absolute moral decline.


https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-eu-project-sees-police-28841534

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Its a non story. The report was part of an EU commissioned project and the report uses the terminology that the EU uses.

"Police Scotland does not use the term Minor-Attracted Person. The reference in the Chief Constable's Assessment of Policing Performance 2021/22 was in the context of Police Scotland's engagement with the Horizon Project EU consortium to tackle Child Sexual Abuse and Exploitation.
The term was used in the commissioning documents for the consortium and is more commonly used on the continent. In September, Police Scotland representatives successfully lobbied for the MAP term not to be used by the consortium."

So its used in this one report because thats the context of the report, its not official Police Scotland policy and its not a term used in Scotland when dealing with Scottish crime reports. Like I said, its a non starter of a story given an eye-catching headline by a tory supporting right wing paper. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Well Jeremy Hunt gave his big economic speech today, and um well, it had words in it. Promises for tomorrow, vague platitudes, aspirations and hopes and a new slogan around the four pillars or four E's. Honestly who dreams this stuff up? It's already been heavily parodied using the old prodigy song Ebeenezer Goode and its chorused '"E's are good!" line which was about the recreational drug ecstasy.So good thinking on your slogan Tories!

Anyway this sums it up better and more honestly- }}

[Mrs Figg]

Just watched the weird and unedifying spectacle of a TV press briefing on Sky news in Memphis, with black dudes saying that the violent murder of a black man by 5 black police officers is 'racism', and by definition white peoples fault. How does that work?

[halfwise]

have to say I'm coming up dry on that one. I can make a convoluted argument, but it's a stretch and weak against rebuttal. I'll just leave it as it lays.