Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[halfwise]

He's quite capable of conducting himself with some decorum, in tightly controlled bursts.  It doesn't last.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ So Iran has seized an oil tanker flying the UK flag. Frankly seems fair enough, we nicked one of theirs with little to no justification so they nick one of ours, what were we expecting?
That however is not what made me laugh about this story, its that this was their second attempt that day to seize a UK ship, they tried it earlier in the day boarding another vessel, only to discover it was a sailing out of Glasgow upon which they mysteriously changed their minds and let it go about its way and picked a ship that hadn't come fro m Glasgow instead. Very wise }}

[Mrs Figg]

British Airways have stopped all flights to Egypt for 'security reasons'.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Was thinking, amid all this furore in the US over the congresswomen being banned from Israel and accusations of anti-Semitism thrown at them. But the US backs Israel to the hilt and without ever questioning their actions or motivations, yet it condemns Putins invasion of Ukraine.
Whats the difference?
In both cases Russian and Israel have an ancestoral claim to the area of land, in both cases the aid land had in the meantime become someone else's land, both claimed their respective areas through a military invasion, and both maintain control of the stolen land through the threat of military superiority, removal or incarceration of those who would fight back and by controlling the flow of goods and money throughout the area.

Why in the US is one obviously wrong and bad and to be publicly condemned and sanctions drawn up against, and the other is praised, unquestioned ever and given continued military and cash support without caveat?

How is this doublethink justified? }}

[halfwise]

Simple.  Russia is the historic enemy, Israel is the historic friend. Logic's got nothing to do with it.

But it even goes deeper than that.  The fundamentalist Christians in America have become politically powerful, and they seem to be even more invested in Israel as part of their faith-identity than many American Jews are.  That's who Trump and other Republicans are aiming for when they back Israel.  In my view Ilhan Omar and company are misfiring when they attack Jewish influence on American politics - they are no longer the leading power when it comes to Israeli support.

[David H]

Yep. Viewed through the window of the traditional Christian right, both Ukraine and Israel have long been, and still are, bastions against the advance of godlessness (Marxism and Islam). It only looks like "double think" when you're viewing it through a more traditionally liberal window

[azriel]

I put this here purely because murder is a serious business...…

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/former-lord-of-the-rings-fx-artist-admits-murdering-parents-after-row-over-beloved-pet-dog/ar-AAIdWqH?ocid=spartanntp

[halfwise]

Well, he was civilized enough to turn himself in and is not even pleading temporary insanity. Earns respect for that.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Not new but good}}

[Pettytyrant101]

One day after Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced that the U.S. government will ease its stance on Israeli settlements, Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pledged to immediately pass a decision to annex the Jordan Valley, which makes up about a quarter of the West Bank, if a unity government is formed.- Fox News

{{ That didnt take long to set the wheels of death and theft of land turning- well done America, you have certianly achieved one thing- you will have even more innocent Palestinian blood on your hands and soul. }}

[halfwise]

You're seeing decades of US policy being undone by a single administration.

[halfwise]

So it seems America has assassinated Iran's military mastermind Soleimeni. This doesn't sit well with me: he was a member of an accepted country, despite the deep differences America has with Iran. You don't assassinate the leaders of other countries: it puts your own leaders at risk. If this was acceptable the entire Un clan from North Korea would have been wiped out decades ago. This could kick off the darkest period we've seen in a lifetime.

Soleimeni was the type of adversary you looked up to: he basically has been running half the middle east for decades. Perhaps the region is better without his supporting the Shia side of things via underground manipulations, but I see dire consequences.

[Lancebloke]

I am not sure how this will play out over the next few days but the question as to why he was where he was is the obvious one.

Iran denies involvement in everything but I dont think he was there on holiday!

[halfwise]

I think this put things, with all its complexity, better than I've seen anywhere else.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-burden-may-proving-not-132040754.html

[Nagual]

Oh dear.

Iran launches ballistic missile attack on Iraqi airbase where US troops are stationed
The Pentagon confirmed that Iran has launched "more than a dozen ballistic missiles against US military and coalition forces in Iraq."

[halfwise]

Well, that's about what any non-lunatic would expect after a government sponsored assassination. The only way I see this getting better is if an American evangelical assassinates Trump and claims he did it for the sake of his Muslim brothers. Uh-huh. I'll just hunker down and keep counting missiles coming our way for the next few years.

[Pettytyrant101]

[Lancebloke]

I think that this was actually quite a token gesture by the Iranians. They had to do something but anything major would have caused another escalation that I dont think either side (taking some Hawks aside) really want.

I would expect nothing much more in terms of direct action will take place, unless Trump feels he needs some PR to his base of course.

[Mrs Figg]

yep agreed the Iranians are not going to do anything too silly, just harry and irritate the enemy as much as possible. I reckon this is just a bit of handbags. They are probably needing more time to regroup and think of something way more dastardly.

[David H]

This is all about strategy.
Persia gave us the game of chess.
China gave us the game of Go.
Trump plays neither.
And that's all I have to say about that!

[halfwise]

Actually Trump is playing the game he knows: he's always had the money to bully people, knowing they are afraid to fight back because he'll just swamp them with lawsuits or whatever. He's been using the American economy and military the same way either through tariffs or military threats. The careful response of Iran via doing an airstrike which carefully kills nobody shows that he may understand this game better than anyone thought. But his subsequent threat of increased sanctions shows that he may never take the cue and de-escalate.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Problem is not what Iran does overtly and publicly, that was just for home consumption, hell was probably Iran tipped off the US it was going to happen. Its what Iran do through their proxies, various groups, intillegence agencies and the like that will be the real response and that will be paced over years not all at once, never any one incident quite enough in itself to be worth either side declaring outright war.

The real problem here is we had a deal with Iran, one they were sticking to. And Iran has a youth with a strong appetite to be more connected and part of the wider global community and with a lot more freedoms, we just had to bide our time, keep the peace through negotation and treaties and wait till the old guard were replaced with the young. The Iranian problem was to large degree generational.
Compared to Trumps best friends Saudi Iran is an advanced nation. On the day Trump made his first overseas visit to Saudi to be greeted in a golden palace by its dicatator King, a country in which limited rights for some women being allowed to drive is heralded as major progress and where they routinely still use torture and brutal execution methods on their own citizens, at the same time Trump was there, Iranian women were driving about Tehran in their own cars tooting their horns in celebration on just having been to vote in their elections.
Iran did not have to be our enemy, it was not our enemy when we had the deal with them, Trump has broke that deal, brought heavy sanctions down on the country, threatened them, directly aided their enemies Saudi with arms which will be used to kill Iranians and provoked them and called their elected and state officials (including the nonelected ones) of a soverign state terrorists, and now they have targeted and assinated an Iranian General with no evidence provided that comes close to meeting the bar for either US law or Interntaional Law that it was a legal act.
This is all Trump's doing. None of this had to go this way- there was an opportunity, hard won by the World Community to resolve this and he threw it away and for nothing more than he couldnt stand anything that could be attributed to Obama as being successful. }}

[halfwise]

I'm not saying Trump did the right thing, just that the consequences so far have not been as bad as most would forecast, mainly because Trump seems to know when he can get away with playing the bully.

Watching Amapour's show, and an Iranian made a very good point: even though everyone was watching for missiles from Iran, even though they may have even given notice, every one of their missiles made it through and hit their target. That's an impressive technological achievement.

[Mrs Figg]

looks like the missile strikes were more successful than they bargained for. only they killed Iranian students instead. the idiots.

[David H]

I'm not saying Trump did the right thing, just that the consequences so far have not been as bad as most would forecast, mainly because Trump seems to know when he can get away with playing the bully.

I don't quite agree. If this were a chess game, Trump would be keeping score by the number of pieces he'd captured. He's just captured a bishop, which Iran knew was vulnerable, so now he's feeling like he's dominating the game.
Meanwhile Iran has been keeping score by how they dominate the board in terms of regional and global influence. The position of having been wronged by the USA suits their game plan very nicely. They're playing the long game and have no problem sacrificing a piece to improve their position, so it's hard for me to see that Trump "got away with" much of anything.