Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ You really dont like sports fans do you?

As to spiritual stuff, mystic stuff, personal belief in whatever you want- no problem with that its religion I have an issue with and the position its afforded within society.
I think without religion the tendency to look for a God will fade to replaced with a keener search for a personal understanding of existence, one which science will be the forefront of rather than religion, but merely as a tool to help seek answers, not as the answer itself.

And whilst people often give examples of great religious works of art or architecture or the like as only existing because of the inspiration given by religion, they rarely consider the other side- that forced to work within the narrow confines of indoctrination and appease it they were stifled, and had there been no religion to enforce particular views they would have been far freer to express their artistry, and just as religion held back the development of science so too it has held back art in all its forms by imposing its own strictures upon it for centuries. Not to mention all the artists, great thinkers and others who we never got because their ideas did not meet the doctrine of the religion and so never even got a chance to develop, never got known, or were killed for just having their ideas. }}

[David H]

'"Hope" should be on that list, as well as "Love".'

Not at all, both of those are tangible biological responses with measurable changes in the body to accompany them and show their physical existence, they are not just a state of mind and certainly not solely a matte rof belief. in short they exist Gods don't. }}

OK, that's a fair test. I've known some very bright people on the autism spectrum who think that both hope and love are bullshit. Presumably they don't experience the same metabolic changes you and I do. Does that make them mentally ill, or us?

On the other hand, there's a whole field of research on the measurable effects of religion and spiritual experiences, which seem to affect different people's brains slightly differently.  https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-religion1.htm
So again, if this religious bent is just one of several normal brain architectures, how would you objectively determine that one is mad and another isn't (other than the handy old tools of tribalism and prejudice of course!)

[Pettytyrant101]

Does that make them mentally ill, or us?- Dave

{{ Now THAT is a good question

there's a whole field of research on the measurable effects of religion and spiritual experiences, which seem to affect different people's brains slightly differently. - Dave

I would put it in the same class as personal belief and spiritual views, if any. Which is an understandable attempt to work out the why of existence. Religion on the other hand is when that is shared with like minded people and then gets to the point where it becomes an 'official' religion and starts enforcing itself on others, willing or no, at which point it has crossed that line between seeking personal understanding and into fanaticism and being delusional and therefore a mental illness. And that can only happen because society makes the allowances it does for it because religions central premise- there is a God he is superior we do what He says and as He is God you have to too- is unassailable when providing proof of your position is not even on the table, or in the room for that matter.

And if you took away that enabling by society and religion just became a thing of the past, no more relevant than Odin, or Isis, and no new gods to replace it you'd still have personal belief just not directed towards some idea of a God or enforced on others or supported by society as a dominant view, but shaped by the exploration of what there actually appears to be and understanding it in the hopes of better understanding ourselves in it.
And all you'd really lose is unnecessary conflict over gods which has plagued humans for at least 5000 years and continues to do so in atrocity after atrocity in the name of a God. }}

[halfwise]

{{ You really dont like sports fans do you? }}

I'm perfectly fine with sports if done for fun and athleticism, one team playing against another and going out for drinks afterwards. It's the organized social phenenoma of other people who have no reason to be involved getting all riled up over it, and deciding they have to be for this team or that team, and spending all sorts of money on costly stadiums and advertising....in short the same things you dislike about organized religion versus mysticism are the things I dislike about organized sports. And just as you get upset that people don't see the obvious negatives of organized religion I feel the same about people just thinking this excitement and commercialism of sports is just the way things are and it's fine. It's not fine, it's a damn waste.

If people see sports as pure entertainment I have no problem: I enjoy the gymnastic events - people doing things you wouldn't think is possible, or pole vaulting, etc. I don't care for ball games, but don't mind if people want to watch them just for the drama of how it plays out. But when people start tying their identities to teams, and feeling pride just because their city happens to have people willing shell out huge sums of money to get the best players...well that's when things are going off the rails. And that's not even getting to violent celebrations. Just like most religious people don't lust for blood of others, most sports fans don't either, so that's not my true gripe. It's the waste of emotion and money, that's my gripe. At least I can feel some awe and wonder going into a cathedral: no stadium can do that.

[Lancebloke]

I beg to differ Halfy. 50000 people singing You'll Never Walk Alone at Anfield on a European night is something to experience first hand.

[halfwise]

About the same as the croaking and sputtering and manful attempts to hit high notes you hear in most church services. but one must make allowances for a single mic trying to capture surround sound.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{  Dave- I only had a chance to skim that article you posted earlier on religious and brain activity, but finally got a chance to properly read it.

It reminds me of an exercise I undertook in my youth, an Alastair Crowley idea in fact form my occult years!

The basis behind it is that intellectually knowing something is next to useless, real learning takes place in the body without words not the other way round. Therefore Crowley's exercises were often focused on doing things which conveyed the information directly to the body through experience not to the mind.

This particular exercise involves picking a person or object largely at random, I choose a spoon You then in all seriousness worship your chosen object exactly as you would a God, devout prayer, time and special days to it, ascribe holidays if you like- but the point is you have to act regardless of knowing how stupid it is as if its the real deal- and you keep doing this with increasing fervour until you reach a point of spiritual experience,a revelation, an insight, a overwhelming feeling of godliness, whatever it might be.
At which point you abandon the worship of your spoon and pick something new and repeat the process to the same point. And you can do it as long as you like (I found twice was enough at it takes a year or so to convince yourself through the activity of worship).

The point of it? Well to teach the body that religious enlightenment, the sensations experienced by the religious are both real experiences and created fantasy in that its applicable to absolutely anything. Anything can be your God so long as you really believe it is. Knowing this intellectually doesn't mean much, like knowing smoking is bad for you but you keep smoking because all your body knows is it wants it.The aim is to demonstrate to the body not the mind  not to mistake those sensations as something unique or particular to a God or deity, but as a reachable human state within our spectrum available to all, without the Gods bit required.

Terry Pratchett used this idea as a joke in one of the Witches novels in which they summon a demon with the Washboard of Doom and the Soap flakes of Terror, its not the thing that matters or does the magic, its just the belief in the thing. Thinking about it only seems to confuse things, as the mind seems determined to associate such sensations and perceptional experiences with some outside entity not realising it is is applicable to anything you want at your own choosing with the exact same results.
Something that article shows too in that the changes in brain activity seen in monks mediating without any deity involved but engendered by learned techniques of behaviour and repetition, are the same thing experienced by the Nuns who have instead got a deity to worship as their focus. It could be the Mighty Spoon instead for all the difference it would make, you'd still get the same result.}}}

[Lancebloke]

 About the same as the croaking and sputtering and manful attempts to hit high notes you hear in most church services.  but one must make allowances for a single mic trying to capture surround sound.

[halfwise]

No doubt it was amazing moment but I think it needs stereo to be appreciated.

[Mrs Figg]

what about asceticism, that is supposed to forget bodily concerns and live in the mind.

[halfwise]

No, no...this discussion is supposed to be about dumbshit stuff.

[azriel]

That's my comfort zone, dumb shit, can practise that for hours

[Pettytyrant101]

[azriel]

love his rants

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Tory Britain-

'The UK's social safety net has been "deliberately removed and replaced with a harsh and uncaring ethos", a report commissioned by the UN has said...Prof Alston is an independent expert in human rights law and was appointed to the unpaid role by the UN Human Rights Council in June 2014...He concluded: "The bottom line is that much of the glue that has held British society together since the Second World War has been deliberately removed and replaced with a harsh and uncaring ethos."
The Australian professor, who is based at New York University, said government policies had led to the "systematic immiseration" of a significant part of the UK population, meaning they had continually put people further into poverty...Some observers might conclude that the DWP had been tasked with "designing a digital and sanitised version of the 19th Century workhouse, made infamous by Charles Dickens", he said...The report cites independent experts saying that 14 million people in the UK - a fifth of the population - live in poverty, according to a new measure that takes into account costs such as housing and childcare.
In 2017, 1.5 million people experienced destitution, meaning they had less than £10 a day after housing costs, or they had to go without at least two essentials such as shelter, food, heat, light, clothing or toiletries during a one-month period...Despite official denials, Prof Alston said he had heard accounts of people choosing between heating their homes or eating, children turning up to school with empty stomachs, increased homelessness and food bank use, and "story after story" of people who had considered or attempted suicide.'


For the record between my last job and the one I'm doing now I was temporarily on Universal Credit, I got no money for two months, I got sanctioned for missing an appointment that they had cancelled, and on more than one occasion I had to choose between if I wanted heating or food for the month ( in the middle of a Scottish winter).
The fact there are 'official denials' that this even happens is part of the problem with UC.


'the cause was the government's "ideological" decision to dismantle the social safety net and focus on work as the solution to poverty.
"UK standards of well-being have descended precipitately in a remarkably short period of time, as a result of deliberate policy choices made when many other options were available," said Prof Alston.'


The government of course have denied everything, pretend its not happening, ignore that food banks went from a fringe need to common place across the UK, that child poverty has increased year on year, that services have been cut, year on year. Hers their official make you furious and sick reply-

"This is a barely believable documentation of Britain, based on a tiny period of time spent here. It paints a completely inaccurate picture of our approach to tackling poverty," a spokesman said.
"All the evidence shows that full-time work is the best way to boost your income and quality of life," the spokesman added.


Remember the tag line basically they launch UC with? And in which they have been summing up their approach to welfare? In case you have forgotten its "Making work pay" in short if your working, even part time, you should be better off than being on benefits and able to sustain yourself and family.
well-

'Despite the government's focus on work and record levels of employment, about 60% of people in poverty are in families where someone works, Prof Alston said.'  }}

[Mrs Figg]

The DWP’S FAKE UC NEWS CAMPAIGN in the Metro is gaining traction.
"The DWP has aroused the anger of activists and some MPs after a leaked memo revealed that the department is funding a UC fake news campaign at the taxpayers’ expense, to be launched at the end of May."

"An advertising campaign for UC costing more than £250,000 is to be disguised as a news investigation and published in the free Metro newspaper."

"In the memo, Universal Credit Director General Neil Couling tells staff:

“The feature won’t look or feel like DWP or UC – you won’t see our branding, and this is deliberate. We want to grab the readers’ attention and make them wonder who has done this ‘UC Uncovered’ investigation. The stories in the feature over the subsequent nine weeks, will highlight the flexible nature of UC, demonstrate the personal service available for all customers, and promote recent improvements such as the increase in work allowances.”


So business as usual at the DWP then...and people still vote for these wankers.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Typical sneaky underhanded government propaganda at work. The Metro should be boycotted for aiding and abetting this deception. }}

[Mrs Figg]

30 pieces of silver. or in this case Tory cash.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Oi Orwell and Chris- what on earth is going on Down Under? Your police are raiding journalists for exposing wrongdoing by your military in Afghanistan?
I thought you had free press down there? You throwing journalists on the barbie now? }}

[azriel]

[azriel]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ }}}

[Lancebloke]

I thought he conducted himself reasonably well... at least until he gave the Irish PM a heart attack when he talked about building walls!!

[azriel]

Yeah, I read about that.

[Mrs Figg]