Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[halfwise]

On Ecuador's part I think it was precipitated by the embassy staff not being able to stand Assange any longer. But the rest was about right.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ Given the horrendous events in Sri Lanka point for debate.

Is it about time we started treating religion as a mental health issue and those who are religious as mentally unwell? }}

[David H]

{{{ Is it about time we started treating religion as a mental health issue and those who are religious as mentally unwell? }}

OK, but only if we also include political and sports fanaticism. Those can be just a deadly (if not more so... )

[David H]

Oh, and alcoholism should be on the list too. The correlation between alcohol and religion/politics/sports speaks for itself!

[Pettytyrant101]

only if we also include political and sports fanaticism- Dave

{{Whilst not keen on either at least sporting teams and political parties are real and exist.
My issue is more with people taking actions based on what seems clearly to be a mental impairment- the belief that a fictional character from a book is a real but invisible all powerful superbeing that if you follow the mixed up teachings from the pages of a 2000 year old compilation of 5000 year old folk stories from Summeria and do as a bunch of people who have been dead for millennia tell you based on their bronze age thinking, beliefs and level of understanding then you will be rewarded or punished accordingly, but only after you've stopped being alive. What?!

That is insane. Like properly mentally ill.

I mean if an adult, every xmas eve genuinely awaited in excitement for Santa to come and leave them free gifts, then when they didnt was hugely upset and spent the rest of the year tying too find ways to appease or get back in santas good books, working out what they think Santa wants from them and then the following year genuinely expected presents this time as a result, and when they obviously dont get any still cant work out why- well you'd say they had an obvious mental issue.

Yet substitute santa with God and we are all supposed to go, oh yeah thats fine, makes total sense now.

No! It doesn't make any more sense. Its still completely off the sanity scale.  And I dont think wider society should allow for that, put up with it, or do anything other than call it out as mentally unstable. In fact I think history and time have shown its actively dangerous not to call it out as obvious nonsense and its believers as mentally ill, suffering as they are from a mental delusion.

And when its at the point that these mentally ill people have the means in the modern age to cause death, suffering and terror on large scale, and do so because their made up version of their imaginary superbeing is a bit different from someone else's made up version of their imaginary superbeing, then surely we have to got to the point where we just say enough with your imaginary fucking superbeings!
You are off your rocker and we should not be pandering to or indulging you in your obvious madness. }}

[David H]

[edit: Also, we don't really have all that great a track record of dealing with mental illness either, do we.... ]

The trouble is Petty that throughout history most of these atrocities haven't been committed by people who feel they're guided by their own religious beliefs. They're overwhelmingly committed by people who are deeply offended by their neighbors' religious beliefs. The religious prejudice is often just a marker for tribalism, racism and xenophobia. And atheistic rants can be every bit a dangerous as any other.

To use your argument of religion = mental illness as an example, imagine a community that agreed with you, and therefore voted to lock up or deport all their {{{insert: Jews, Muslims, Christians, Catholics, Protestants, Shiites, Sunnis, Cathars, Zoroastrians etc.}}} for the safety of the community. It would look exactly like most of human history, wouldn't it?

I firmly believe it isn't Religion that's the poison within humanity, it's simply the Tribalism and Xenophobia over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and  over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over andover and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I dont think society should ban or outlaw religion in any way way. Just not pander to it or treat it as anything other than a mental issue.
So for example they should have no special status in tax laws or charity laws, if they ask for money and promise salvation they have to be able to verifiably prove that same as any other business selling stuff has to.
In the Uk for example representatives of faith get an automatic seat in the House of Lords where they can influence law- this is the opposite of how you should treat someone's mental delusion.
The Christians churches position of making up its own rules and laws and then being able to keep that from wider society is how we get hundreds of years on institutional paedophilia and cover-up of the crimes. had they been any other sort of organisation they would have been open to scrutiny and courts and law enforcement long ago.

This kid glove approach, its religious so somehow outside scrutiny and normal reasonable thought or argument has had its day. Long since in fact. I think if the general message society sends is of that- that religion has no relevance in the modern world, and religous works like the bible are treated solely as historical items of interest solely on those terms,but serves no useful or practical purpose and is based on bronze age thinking and levels of understanding- then it will simply die off on its own. As it is already doing in many places (I for example live in a majority secular society with more than 50% at the last census have no religious beliefs). But that process could be accelerated by society purposefully rejecting the allowances previously made to religion. }}

[halfwise]

I have to argue for Dave's point that sports fanaticism is on the same level as religious fanaticism.

Typically when the fanaticism reaches its peak is when you've got blokes you know the least being paid the most.  Not neighborhood kids you may have a reason to care about.  They're usually imports you've never met and never will.

And what is all this excitement about?  A damn piece of leather or plastic being tossed around.  Is this really any more rational than religious fervor?  I think not.  And if you believe it is, it's just a symptom of your mental impairment.

Ain't gonna catch me cheering on any of these things.  It's a mental disease, clear and simple.  Tribalism run amok with no useful payoff whatsoever.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I dont agree sport and religion are on the same level- the team you support is real, tangible and evident- unlike supernatural superbeings which are fictional and invented.
And whilst sport fanaticism can be very bad if you take the example in Scotland of the famous rivalry between Rangers and Celtic its not the fervent support of club and team that drives the violence, its the underlining sectarianism between Catholic (Celtic) and protestant (Rangers) that makes it utterly toxic. Its the fanciful made up delusion of God and religion that really sours it far more than the sports side does.

And supporters of a team dont get to justify behaviour or attitudes that would be otherwise unacceptable just because they support a team. }}

[David H]

{{And supporters of a team dont get to justify behaviour or attitudes that would be otherwise unacceptable just because they support a team. }}

I have to strongly disagree. I was visiting in Seattle when the Seahawks won the Superbowl in 2014. I don't think there was a law that went unbroken that night.

And the list goes on and on. Every zoning and building code gets broken to build giant sports stadiums where the faithful can gather, while the team franchises are given massive tax breaks and incentives to relocate. Media gives prime time access whenever possible, meanwhile children of all ages erect shrines to their sports "idols".

So what do the words "idol" or "idolize" mean to you Petty? That right there should be a clue we're looking at a State Religion.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Nevertheless their 'idols' exist and are real people doing a real sport you can go and see. They are not therefore a mental arbitration, a belief in something which does not in fact exist.
It can certainly be taken too far, and certainly into unhealthy mental health territory, but its not built on a mental delusion. }}

[halfwise]

One of the universities I did for grad school had a long tradition they finally tamped out while I was there.  After a game between this school and some particular other school - don't remember the name because I'm not part of the sports cult - then win or lose our undergrads would go on a rampage, flipping over cars and even burning them.

All harmless fun?  Serious damage.   Teams are real and not imaginary?  What do they actually accomplish? They get balls through goals marked out with lime on grass.  Is this more real than an unseen god endlessly portrayed by artwork and idols and alters?  Same level of representation that I can see.  Teams are real?  So are church congregations. Their marked field is the church grounds.

Sorry, I get exactly the same vibes off sports fanatics that I get off religious fanatics.  Deluded into thinking something is important that should have no real impact on life without that belief.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I am opposed in general to ideologues, religious or otherwise so I am not disagreeing that fanaticism in any form for anything is a bad idea. But our western society makes a ton of allowances for religions it would not do for any other institution. The manager of Man Utd doesn't get to influence law making, but Bishops do. Thats just being an enabler for someone elses mental delusion. And that's not a healthy way to treat a mental delusion.

I also view politics the same way, a good idea based on facts, knowledge and balancing what is fairest for the majority should be the basis of policy, not if its deemed as being from right or left.
So for example if single payer health care is the best system anyone has devised for delivering full coverage to a population then it should not be rejected solely because its seen as been from the left. Conversely if a low corporation tax makes economic sense and benefits and has a positive overall effect it should not be discarded because its from the right.
It should be about what is best, not ideology.

But if you think religion is not a dangerous mental arbitration then imagine the middle east without it, no Christians, no Muslims, no Jews. What would you have? A bunch of Arabs all living as neighbours who have far, far more in common with each other than they do differences. Something that with religion removed becomes self-evidently clear, yet with it in place is so obscured its been thousands of years of constant death there and a mindset of they are not like us. And that is properly mad and mentally deluded and has no basis in any reality just folk lore and fairy stories going under this ridiculous but incredibly powerful word of religion.}}

[halfwise]

Dave and I are NOT arguing that religion is NOT a mental aberration, we're just arguing that sports fans fall into the same class.  You may be missing this because you refuse to accept that sports fervor is a mental disease, so from that viewpoint we must be arguing that religion isn't either.  

Just the opposite.  Both are equally poxes on society that confer some psychological benefits from a sense of belonging.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I would say that at the extreme end of sports fan you can have unhealthy mental issues with fanaticism and total cult like devotion. But that is already recognised as being a mental health thing.
Religion is not considered a mental health issue, but some sort of untouchable personal issue of faith, even at the extreme end of blowing themselves up to kill as many random people as possible, we still dont talk about it as the work of the mentally ill. Al Qaeda should not be referred to as either a terrorist group or a religious one, either title only gives them status that is undeserved, but as a cult of mentally ill people. As that is what they are.

And there is still the big difference that whilst a sports fan devotion can be mentally unhealthy or outright bad, its still based in an actual real existing thing. Religion does not even have that and yet it is still not treated as a mental health problem. }}

[David H]

{{ Nevertheless their 'idols' exist and are real people doing a real sport you can go and see. They are not therefore a mental arbitration, a belief in something which does not in fact exist.}}

Woah! That's a REALLY high bar!!! So how do you feel about believing in history or in people who have died, all things which clearly don't exist? How do you feel about memory (with all its flaws)? Is that a mental illness too????

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I dont think its necessary to 'believe' in history- in fact I'd advise strongly against it. You can infer a lot from whats left behind, records, artefacts, structures (real, tangible things you can examine and study), and you can add to that with other sciences, to learn about climate in the past, ecology, atmosphere and the like. You can build often a very detailed model of the past. But you shouldn't 'believe' it. Its always up for change upon new discoveries, understandings etc.

Memory again is not reliable and cannot be believed, and a sensible person is aware of the flaws in their own memory and will be willing to accept that and make allowances for it and accept it where it can be shown to be at fault. By necessity we rely on our own memory, but again 'believing' in it is not a good idea.  

Religion requires pure belief and nothing else. Masquerading under the word faith. }}

[halfwise]

And sports requires a belief that what's going on actually means something and is worth getting excited about.  I'd say that's an even greater feat of mental manipulation because you can SEE it's just a damn grass field marked with lime and a bunch of people you don't know tossing some ratty piece of leather around.  And yet with all the evidence in front of their eyes people still go all blarney-brained about it.   That's some serious delusion. These people need help.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Yes, but again there is something there they can see that their subsequent mental state is built from. It has that at least.
Religion is even more a mental arbitration as any religions only evidence for the existence of their particular God is their claim that a God exists! They then on top of that extrapolate what this God is like, what the God likes and doesn't like, how they want everyone to act, and apparently authorise their followers to ensure this is carried out by any horrific means possible, and that is understandable in the light of seeing it as a means of controlling populations, engendering certain feelings of kinship and shared society. But actually believing it to be true and acting that way purely out of that belief? Definitely madness.

Which brings it back to my original point that society as a whole should not act as an enabler for this mental illness, but should call it out for what it is at every turn and help it die out rather than helping it cling on. }}

[Mrs Figg]

But if you think religion is not a dangerous mental arbitration then imagine the middle east without it, no Christians, no Muslims, no Jews. What would you have? A bunch of Arabs all living as neighbours who have far, far more in common with each other than they do differences. Something that with religion removed becomes self-evidently clear, yet with it in place is so obscured its been thousands of years of constant death there and a mindset of they are not like us. And that is properly mad and mentally deluded and has no basis in any reality just folk lore and fairy stories going under this ridiculous but incredibly powerful word of religion.}}

Petty I think they still kill each other for being in different tribes.

[halfwise]

Yeah. It's the sports/tribe mentality. Religion is just a way to abstract it.

[David H]

{{ engendering certain feelings of kinship and shared society.}}}

Yep, that's the tribalism that's at the heart of every war that's ever been fought. It's at the heart of BREXIT and Yellow Vest protests, and revolutions in Venezuela, and on and on.... There's a persuasive argument that sports and religion are actually fairly benign outlets for our tribalist battles, compared to more World Wars or Nuclear Armageddon. One should think carefully before challenging the usefulness of pressure relief valves....

{{{ But actually believing it to be true and acting that way purely out of that belief? Definitely madness.

Which brings it back to my original point that society as a whole should not act as an enabler for this mental illness, but should call it out for what it is at every turn and help it die out rather than helping it cling on. }}

"Hope" should be on that list, as well as "Love". Call it out if you must (preferably from a soapbox in the middle of a park with your finger pointing to the sky. That's madness too!) , but I'm of the opinion that a bit of madness is the only thing that's  keeping any of us sane.

[Pettytyrant101]

I think they still kill each other for being in different tribes.- Figg

{{Possibly but other parts of the world developed from that bronze/iron age mentality, look at the UK, England was full of tribes for centuries, Iceni and all that. In Scotland you had clans, just another word for tribe.
What made the big difference here? A combination of the first crumbling of the grip of religion on society with Protestantism and the Scottish Enlightenment focused on what we now call sciences. Once people began to be freed from the illness of religion they moved away form the tribal and clan structures completely. And the subsequent industrial age borne of the enlightenment led to the eventual freeing up of people from such allegiances all together- save religion which still somehow clings on in there.

Now maybe in the ME they would still be fighitng in tribes, but there is as much a chanced, freed of the indoctrinating madness of that bronze/iron age mythos and thinking they would have moved on like most other long standing nations did.

And even assuming th worst, they remained tribal and violent towards each other, at least it would be over something tangible, family and tribal allegiance to real people, real resources, real land. Not good, but not as mad either. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

that's the tribalism that's at the heart of every war that's ever been fought. It's at the heart of BREXIT and Yellow Vest protests.- Dave

{{I wouldn't disagree with that. But one of the tools used to drive tribalism is religion, so no bad thing to remove a powerful tool from the arsenal, making tribalism less easy to manage and maintain.


'One should think carefully before challenging the usefulness of pressure relief valves....'

This is why I am not advocating for society to shun sport. Though it does need tempered to remove its propensity to violence. But that I think is probably more commonly for the sport being used as an excuse to release pressures caused by upbringing/poverty/stress/work/ lack of work/ etc and those in theory are things which society can and should try to treat and address.
Religion however I dont think is such a pressure valve, quite the opposite, it stokes up pressure and does not relieve it and it is ultimately always divisive, as when it encounters someone who does not have the same views the only way the exchange can go at its basic level is,

I dont believe what you do.

I cant prove to you what I believe is true or point to anything which does, but you just have to believe it or I have to kill or enslave you because that's what I believe I have to do.

Thats not the sort of thing which relieves any pressure. And most religions rely on their servitude to the innate human trait of thinking whatever we are doing we are probably in the wrong. The catholic church would not have succeeded as it has without at its heart imbuing a sense of guilt on its followers, and the offer of freedom from that guilt, at a price. making people feel guilty about normal human behaviour is not stress relieving.



'"Hope" should be on that list, as well as "Love".'

Not at all, both of those are tangible biological responses with measurable changes in the body to accompany them and show their physical existence, they are not just a state of mind and certainly not solely a matte rof belief. in short they exist Gods don't. }}

[halfwise]

Well if you're going to evaluate sports versus religion as pressure valves, I think religion wins. The only other good thing sports provides is the concept of good sportsmanship; religion can provide a comprehensive moral system, twisted as it may become at times.

But more importantly ruminating on these 'nonexistent' spiritual matters drives a lot of intellectual development, from reading to music. Sports are not intellectual. Many of the greatest scientists from Kepler to Newton were driven by a completely cockeyed mysticism, but at least it spurred them to accomplish something worthwhile. What has the sports industry accomplished for humankind? Only the Greeks were able to link it to higher values; today we have none of that.