US General Election 2016

I'm sorry. It might not be that simple. This is your country. And as Bernie Sanders said, as long as Trump will be a normal candidate, as long as he follow up on constructive policy, even he, a self-confessed socialist, will support him. But if people like the two of you won't stand up to unacceptable policy whether throught elections OR OTHERWISE, this world is lost. If Trump is the president he was as a candidate, that must be resisted, through legislature, through the courts, through protest. There is a moral line. And a minority in the popular vote, a majority in the elctoral college, of americans in this election decided that moral line was less important than dislike of the elite, I think we all must admit a wish for a return of an america that is gone and a wish for any sort of change. Because it's a reality makes it no less scary. Wake up to that fact please, this is not a normal candidate or president. Let his actions be deciding. But don't blindly accept those actions because the person enacitng them was voted in by a minority of americans. That attitude lead to Donald Trump's election. Judge him on his actions, but let's also judge him on his actions.

its his foreign policy and climate change that worry me most, he may just be another Berlusoni in which case it can be repaired once he goes, but the climate is not so forgiving. or the Chinese for that matter.

Yes, for me too, as a non-citizen of the United States.

I'm sorry, none of this is personal, but I think if we don't all accept there is a moral limit to life, to politics, these sorts of things will keep happening. And no, Trumps policices and comments as a candidate were not within the moral limits we have to set ourselves as societies.

That aside, it's certainly interesting to delve into why he was still elected. But if he is not just a blustering demagogue, then this election result is really dangerous. (Beyond putting Tea Party policy into the WH. (With congressional backing.))

Did you even read what I wrote?

Let me make it as simple as possible. Yes, resist him, but through the system. Don't claim his election was invalid.

Which I never claimed. (And yes I read what you wrote.)

Look Blue, I get your point but as I see it there's a bigger threat that you're not addressing.

In the nearest city to me (Portland, Oregon) there are nightly anti-trump protests in which windows have been smashed, buildings vandalized and people shot. Sure, the majority of protesters are nonviolent but still there is an underlying energy of conflict on both sides that feels like a powder keg.  

We've seen plenty of elections in other countries where the validity of the outcome was questioned, riots followed, and the military was used to bring peace at the expense of personal freedom, often followed by an authoritarian government.  I have no desire to walk down that path.

Our democratic institutions are strong, but they're not unbreakable. They've lasted this long because the American people have historically respected the institutions even when they've disagreed with the particular officeholders. I don't think we would be doing ourselves any favors by forgetting that.

Well, I guess we both can agree to our points in their extremes. But, I can't really agree to the fact that a few people taking the protest too far is indicative of the general mood. Protest is a valid an neccesary part of democracy and free speech. Sending in the military in the way you describe would be monstrous, and it would I think forever split your country in a way that I'm not sure can be mended. Let people air their views, let them find better ways to direct hteir angst and anger. These will be inevitable fall outs of this election in any case, imho.

Bluebottle wrote: Protest is a valid an neccesary part of democracy and free speech.

I agree 100%  (FWIW I was in Seattle in 1999 for the WTO protests.)  

The big difference I see now as compared to Civil Rights Movement and Occupy Movement protests is that an individual person is being protested, not a policy.

To me that crosses a line.  Policies are fair game, but when you protest individuals you actually feed their demagogue narrative.  That story goes all the way back to Julius Caesar. I don't think we want to go there.  

And I want to be clear that I suspect there would have been the same level of protest if the election had gone the other way. That's how divided we are as a nation now.  

On another point, a lot of people have been talking about the next 4 years, but if the Democratic party has learned anything about listening to their constituents I suspect we'll see the pendulum start to swing back their way at the midterm elections in just 2 years. If we're not satisfied with Trump's administration, that's the time to start fixing it within the democratic process.

I agree you cant mess with democracy, its a pretty fragile thing, and the world is looking on. We have to accept the vote that's not in question, but when its 50/50 people are going to demonstrate and they should be allowed to, its not Turkey and trump wont do a purge. (I hope). lets wait and see, I am hoping his more extreme promises fall by the wayside, but I don't bank on it. I reckon he will go in hard to show the people he means biz. talking of hard, I think its going to be hard brexit if the farage thing is anything to go by, he being antagonistic to Europe, maybe that's why Juncker is having kittens. expect an increasingly hysterical Juncker.

just when I thought it couldn't get more surreal its Farage n Trump in the golden elevator.

Nobody's saying people shouldn't be allowed to demonstrate, just that the focus of demonstration is a bit off kilter.  Many people are carrying signs saying "not my president"; what many of them really mean is "I didn't vote for him"; but quite a few do mean what they say, that they don't accept the election results.  That's dangerous for democracy.

If they'd all say clearly what they didn't like about what he was saying during the campaign, and that they will hold him responsible if he carries through with his more egregious statements, then things would be dandy.  It takes work to boil things down to be pithy enough for a demonstration, but it would be more beneficial than what they are doing now.

Mrs Figg wrote: lets wait and see, I am hoping his more extreme promises fall by the wayside, but I don't bank on it.  

I do think there's hope of that. I watched his interview on "60 Minutes" tonight, and he's already backing away from a lot of his stronger campaign rhetoric.  He's still going to build the Wall, but parts of it could be a fence. He's still going to deport thousands of Mexicans, but only the convicted criminals and then he's going to figure out a way so the good people can stay in the US. He's still going to replace Obamacare, but he admits it tricky. He wants to keep all the "good parts" of which he named several, but make it cheaper and better (NHS model???) When the subject of racist behavior by some of his supporters came up, he looked straight into the camera and told them to stop.  
He struck me as a simple man with absolutely no sense of humor who relies heavily on his advisors.  I wish him luck, and above all I'm going to be watching who he surrounds himself with as advisors.  For now it looks like Pence and  Priebus may be shouldering a lot of the load, at least in the first months. We'll see....

As for the protesting, Halfy and I are of the same mind.  The election was legal and the count was 290 to 228 electoral votes in favor of Trump.  Popular vote is not part of our election process and never has been. To protest the outcome in this case is to directly challenge the validity of our Constitution, and that's fundamentally dangerous.
 
However for those who disagree with Trump's policies, or Congress' policies, or Supreme Court decisions, or any number of other serious policy issues there's plenty to protest about. Far better in my opinion to use the "Big Hammers" of Free Speech and Public Assembly to pound on these issues where they can actually do some good, rather than pounding on the Constitution where they could conceivably do damage to our whole democracy.

Does anything think it is conceivable that any states would look to split away from the U.S? There seems to always be an underlying talk of California or Texas (seemingly normally depending on who is in power) becoming their own country.

It is something I have always thought was just a tiny minority that thought about it seriously (unlike say Catalonia where it seems quite a chunk of that population would like independence).

The idea of secession comes up about as regularly as the idea of a mass exodus to Canada (ie, when people are in their feelings about how something turned out at the federal level) and is usually forgotten just as quickly. When the "movement" sticks around longer it's generally in the service of some other idea (whether a publicity stunt to attract tourism or draw attention to some cause, a way to foster a sense of identity for a certain region, and/or just for kicks) rather than because independence is the actual aim.

{{{Some Texans like to emphasize their allegedly unique right to leave the Union (which doesn't exist) as they were once an independent republic, but Hawaii, Vermont, and all of the former Thirteen Colonies have them beat in the "time spent as a sovereign state" category.}}}

That is how I had seen it previously. Just wondered if you thought recent public sentiment could lead to some of these movements gaining some traction.

Certainly in my living memory the U.S has never looked as divided as now and it would be going back a long time to see similar examples.

I'm confused, When aint I, but, Trump has spent his life being a business man. It might have been a small pond compared to an actual Country but, I'm getting a niggle, a tummy tingle. His bolshi tub thumping I think was part swimming with the tide. Its easy I guess to get euphoric on the good notes & doubtful on the low notes. Weren't we here when Obama got in ? I don't know, a part of me would like to see him succeed & do some of the things he said, build a better USA for want of a cliché. Cant do anything but see. Trump has taken the reins of the biggest TV show in history. I'm not saying that as a cheap, rude put down, I'm saying that as all the world seems to look to America. Its almost as tho you cant have a world without America ? So much exudes from America. Ive got enough trying to keep up with this crazy country, the fucked up politicians, confusing Laws, confusing Benefits ( if any! ) Immigration, refugees, a Royal family that seem no more than a decorated Christmas tree...

My memories of 2004 are somewhat fuzzy because that's the year I turned 10 but I remember the country being extremely divided and my very liberal/Democratic family (and most of the other adults I knew, many of them Quakers like us) being similarly baffled by Bush's re-election. We had the Iraq War in general, Abu Ghraib in particular, climate change (that was the year The Day After Tomorrow came out, with a thinly fictionalized version of Dick Cheney as the main villain). Speaking of movies, Fahrenheit 9/11 became the highest-grossing documentary in US history that year (a record it still holds by a substantial margin) and The Passion of the Christ became the highest-grossing R rated movie (also a record it still holds, despite 12 years of inflation). While I don't think that Bush and Trump are exactly comparable, a not-insignificant number of Democrats saw Bush as an illegitimate President not just because of the election inversion but because of the shadiness with Florida's purging of voter rolls and the way in which the recount was stopped. Gay marriage became a big issue when it was legalized in Massachusetts and Bush started pushing for a constitutional amendment against it, though there were of course a lot of Democrats still against gay marriage at that point.

I can't speak as to what things looked like from other countries, or even necessarily what it looked like outside of the environment I grew up in, but it felt very scary and divisive, though this was just as I was beginning to pay attention to politics for the first time so it might stand out disproportionately in my mind. Though I think the hugely viral Jesusland map, which I didn't see until years later when I became active online, sums up how a lot of liberals felt at the time. The map also illustrates how the electoral college divide was more distinct along regional lines than 2016's was, for what that's worth.

I'm a bit peeved at our older Supreme Court justices. Ruth Bader Ginsberg is 83! Isn't 80 a nice round year to retire on? She could have gone out knowing she'd be replaced by someone of like mind. And for the others, 75 is a nice round retirement year too. Sheesh.

These are fun. People making up practical jokes Joe Biden plans to leave behind for Trump.

http://mashable.com/2016/11/13/obama-biden-meme-against-trump/?hl=1&noRedirect=1#OSXbM_7zdmq4

Well, Blue, that got a 2 thumbs up from me, I heartily agree with the sentiment........."fuck you 2016!"............amongst other things !

Oh Halfy

I am worried about the people he will surround himself with. there's one guy in particular, cant remember his name, the one that thinks the earth is 6000 years old. if he just does the tycoon thing that's ok by me, but if he starts putting pro-lifers in charge its going to turn sour pretty soon.

If we can judge from his past, he's likely to surround himself with highly competitive people, then play them against each other to create drama and test them, like he did with "Celebrity Apprentice". It's even possible that's exactly what a lot of voters are hoping for. If that's true, it can't be any worse than what Congress has been doing the last few years (and probably more entertaining. )