US General Election 2016

But I think his main point and parallel is still good: rules are good only as long as nobody breaks them. Trump is busy breaking the nepotism rule, and nobody's going to do a thing to stop him. That one isn't so dear to my heart as the unwritten conflict of interest with private business, which he isn't paying any attention to either. If he'd just announce he was retiring from business and turning it over to his kids I'd be happy.

There's an argument to be made that Trump was put in to run roughshod over the established order, but it was to be insularism he was to break up, not accepted rules about private interest.

If that was the extent of Krugman's point then I wouldn't disagree with him, but his main point is this:

Paul Krugman wrote:One thing all of this makes clear is that the sickness of American politics didn’t begin with Donald Trump, any more than the sickness of the Roman Republic began with Caesar. The erosion of democratic foundations has been underway for decades, and there’s no guarantee that we will ever be able to recover.

But if there is any hope of redemption, it will have to begin with a clear recognition of how bad things are. American democracy is very much on the edge.

Which is not even remotely supported by the historical parallels he tries to draw.

EDIT: and as I've said before, if your concern is corruption or big business or whatever, the fact that the country survived the Gilded Age is a strong argument against Trump being an existential threat to the Republic. Which is not in any way to argue that Trump is good, okay, or that people shouldn't oppose him.

Yeah, I think Krugman's being alarmist. I've also pointed out in previous posts that we've had an incredibly corrupt government in the past: arguably the golden age of clean government began and ended with Eisenhower.

Suspect has been arrested and charged with the burning of a black church in Mississippi that had "Vote Trump" spray painted on it. The man charged with the crime is black, and a member of the church. Huh. Almost like he wanted to make Trump voters look racist.

https://twitter.com/ap/status/811680005898039297

http://wreg.com/2016/12/21/mississippi-authorities-make-arrest-in-burning-of-african-american-church-spray-painted-with-vote-trump/

"Uh akchually, bungo, Trump retweets racists everyday, so you are invalid."

More evidence of tolerant leftists here: http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/22/ivanka-trump-flight/

My ability to easily embed youtube videos and post pictures seems to have been taken away. I've watched this one several times, so good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiWY0iRLV94

You guys on the left had your temper tantrum with your astro-turf protests, claims about fake news changing the election outcome, claims about Russians "hacking the election,""but the popular vote!" etc. You lost. Will anyone give Trump a chance? You were reassured by every pundit, every polling model, every projection, every news story, that you would get your way, and you didn't.

What's this? Obama staying in D.C. after his term is over? I guarantee you he will be all over the media trying to step on Trump's toes at every corner.

I wish some of you here would come out of the woodwork and say to my face what you really think about me. Tell me I supported "the next Hitler." Say I'm racist! Say I hate women! Say it! I fucking dare you!

{{Firstly- Bungo! Secondly you don't seem to have gotten in the xmas spirit despite being on the winning side! And as far as I am aware I have always said whatever I thought of you, or any discussions you've raised honestly and without any intent for personal attacks- but if I also disliked everyone who didn't agree with me I would be very short of people too like!
We have a difference of opinion- time will tell on Trump and all the arguments will be made mute by actions.
And thirdly and lastly- we dont need to hold new elections for Mayor (OK the sitting one might have gone a bit crabbit- and without the proper schooling or training either! - and he might start waving guns about and demanding we build walls everywhere- but still- we have our Mayor back and someone to finally eat that backlog of banqueting food! Hope your stomachs ready Bungo! )}}

woah Bungo where has all this come from?  

maybe you are referring to other Americans here? and maybe you don't give a crap what I think. But what the heck, I will tell you what I think about you, honestly.  

I think you are an idealistic young person, you are entitled to vote how you want, and I don't judge you as a human being even if I don't like Trump, its got nothing to do with how I feel about you. I think most of what Trump said during the election was hot air and he has admitted as such quite openly. He may not be as extreme as he makes out, and he may not be that bad, I for one will wait and see. Glad to find out that Obama has put the brakes on oil drilling in Alaska, so lets wait and find out?

and we are your friends Bungo whether you like it or not.

Good to have you back, Bungo!

And nobody said you were racist, we were mainly curious what made you such a strong Trump supporter that you could look past his racist statements. If you could balance one against the other it would be very interesting.

I have a libertarian friend who finally came out as a strong Trump supporter. In addition to built-in views on Hillary, I think it really came down to wanting to break free from restrictions. He liked Trump because he had no filter and would throw light on America's dirty laundry rather than trying to squelch it. I happen to disagree because I have seen signs of the PC movement changing people's racism while Trump inflames it, but that's open for discussion.

{{{My senior at work, who is from Ethiopia, and who when I first met her was wearing a massive YES badge during the independence referendum and who is the best senior I have ever seen and the hardest working, and generally one of the nicest, caring, considerate people I have ever met is an ardent Trump supporter. And if she asked me to walk through fire for her I would, I have that much respect for her. But we still argue about Trump and how she could support the SNP on one hand and Trump on the other  }}

Every black Trump supporter I've met has been from Africa.  Makes me think Trevor Noah was onto something when he called Trump an African Dictator.

bungobaggins wrote:
I wish some of you here would come out of the woodwork and say to my face what you really think about me. Tell me I supported "the next Hitler." Say I'm racist! Say I hate women! Say it! I fucking dare you!

I haven't been doing that much woodwork recently, but I will come out and say that I'd like to hear your thoughts Bungo on the Dark Tower film's release date being moved back to July next summer. I posted about it over in the Dark Tower thread.

Hi Bungo. I don't think I ever made any secret that I've always thought Hillary and Donald were two of a kind, both rich New York power-brokers, and that there was no way I'd ever vote for either of them, but that I'd always resigned myself to one or the other being elected. Then I'd do my best to treat whoever won with all the respect due to the Office of the President. We've had some really bad presidents in my lifetime, and we've always survived. I figure we'll survive this time too. I just wish we'd get more of a choice next time around.

Nothing against you at all, even when you bumped me from #10 for a while.

Hey bungo, I hope you've been well.

I've tried to be consistent in my rejection of the (in my opinion) poor historical analogies and blanket insults towards/sweeping generalizations of Trump supporters, even though I disagree with Trump on a great many things. I think the attempts at casting doubt on the legitimacy of the election and/or Trump's victory in it are baseless and potentially dangerous. I've always liked reading your posts on many different topics and I certainly bear no ill will towards you for your support of Trump. I know from experience that being the lone representative of one side of a heated debate isn't always fun, but I hope that I have not said anything that makes you feel unwelcome here because of your political opinions.

Why are Trump supporters such reactionaries? When I say I don't like Trump it doesn't mean I think all his supporters are racists.... not ALL of them.

Well, time to vacate the politics sub-forum again!

Bungo?

I would like your thoughts on what we have said.

Not sure I like Bungo's abusive thoughts. The ones he voices. As to Trump, he is free to revere him. America is a democracy. You can love and adore whoever you want to. It has also never been a crime in Forumshire to love a pampered, privileged, peurile racist sexist demagogue - or to argue he is not.

I'm in inner conflict, I am at odds with myself. I can agree that anyone can run for president, I can agree anyone can vote for whoever they choose. If the candidate is saying all the things you want to hear, its that candidate you will vote for but, people in extremely serious jobs that require the upmost thought & wisdom, are now being taken by, from what I see, Celebs ? Running a hugeious country like America, & all the millions living there is a hell of a lot different than running Trump Towers. And whatever "USA" decides has a knock on effect with the rest of, Id say, humanity ? I think get over "whoop, whoopping" & fist punching the air & tread very, very carefully.

https://www.facebook.com/senatorsanders/videos/10155471639892908/

Hello Bungo Good to hear you. Quite the little fighter aren't you Fire in the heart, passion for what you believe, you'll be a strong man for a very long time.

Eldorion wrote:I've tried to be consistent in my rejection of the (in my opinion) poor historical analogies and blanket insults towards/sweeping generalizations of Trump supporters, even though I disagree with Trump on a great many things. I think the attempts at casting doubt on the legitimacy of the election and/or Trump's victory in it are baseless and potentially dangerous. I've always liked reading your posts on many different topics and I certainly bear no ill will towards you for your support of Trump. I know from experience that being the lone representative of one side of a heated debate isn't always fun, but I hope that I have not said anything that makes you feel unwelcome here because of your political opinions.

I'm very much in agreements with this, and while I have probably come close to the hyperbole itself in the process of dealing with this election result, which along with brexit was devestating to a mind pro-international peace and cooperation under values of basic human rights and common decency, I am far more worried about the realities than all the hyperbole.

And, Bungo, I am sorry if any of my posts have hurt you personally. Politics are naturally matters of dispute, because we all for some reason think it so important for our opinions to be heard, regarded and put into policy. (That comment is directed at myself more than anyone, to be honest.) My comments, while consistent on substance, were not meant to in any way accuse Trump supporters on a blanket basis for the human failures I, and many others I hasten to add, saw in his campaign to run for President of the United States.

To be honest what hurts most about seeing Trump elected from my own, arguably biased, perspective, is that he is the most easily discerned, non apologetic fraud there ever will be running for public office, and people fell for it en masse. Not that I think most people supported him on the whole, but he was the final choice for many people at the ballot box, the national minority, but electional college majority in the end, between two unpopular candidates. He has already unashamedly pulled back on his promises in as many instances as he has been allowed, but he is still the volatile person with his twitter activity that so many were scared of seeing in a position of executive political power. So, I guess, Trump supporters have to look and ask, what was I supporting, the policies or the man. If it is just the personality, I think folks need to ask some serious questions about what policy they would find acceptable. Because, we cannot run politics on personality, and forget the issues, then we are, in my most humble opinion, lost.

Bluebottle wrote:
To be honest what hurts most about seeing Trump elected from my own, arguably biased, perspective, is that he is the most easily discerned, non apologetic fraud there ever will be running for public office, and people fell for it en masse.

I'm glad you stated that in terms of personal perspective Blue. Words like "the most [...] there will ever be" would be pretty hard to justify otherwise.
From my perspective, I'd say that what's easily discerned is highly subjective. Also, I don't think I've ever personally met an apologetic fraud. Do you have any  good examples of apologetic frauds for comparison?

From my perspective, I'd say that unapologetic frauds are a normal and inevitable part of the democratic process, and that our current President elect lies somewhere on that broad spectrum. Looked at that way, easily-discerned fraud (as opposed to indiscernible fraud which I suspect is most common) is actually a plus!

{{Well done Obama in abstaining from the UN vote on Israeli settlements allowing it to otherwise pass unopposed. Its about time the US stopped shielding illegal Israeli activity. You cant have a two state solution if one side has already stolen all the land the other side are supposed to live on! }}}

I've never been really comfortable with any nation having unconditional veto power. It makes everybody feel like they're playing in a rigged game, especially if it's going to be used to override a unanimous vote, as in this case.  
We should get a team of gamers to come into the UN and update the rules. Then maybe we could finally have World Peace!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Well done Obama in abstaining from the UN vote on Israeli settlements allowing it to otherwise pass unopposed. Its about time the US stopped shielding illegal Israeli activity. You cant have a two state solution if one side has already stolen all the land the other side are supposed to live on! }}}

agreed.