Re: US General Election 2016

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:18 pm

{{Apparently Trump favours raising the minimum wage to $10 - so he was a closet Democrat sleeper agent all along!! Shocked

}}}

by halfwise Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:22 am

That's no surprise, he's always had a mixed bag of policy. But he's not a team player so nobody would claim him. Then out of nowhere came all this racism etc and then nobody would touch him.

by Eldorion Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:06 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Apparently Trump favours raising the minimum wage to $10 - so he was a closet Democrat sleeper agent all along!! }}}

The Mandarin Candidate

US General Election 2016 - Page 26 MLM0QvB

by **Orwell** Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:29 am

So first promise broken???

by **Orwell** Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:31 am

halfwise wrote:That's no surprise, he's always had a mixed bag of policy. But he's not a team player so nobody would claim him. Then out of nowhere came all this racism etc and then nobody would touch him.

No one would touch him..... publicly.....

by **Orwell** Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:32 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Apparently Trump favours raising the minimum wage to $10 - so he was a closet Democrat sleeper agent all along!! }}}

Would that include his own employees, both in America and the slums of Asia? cyclops

by azriel Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:17 am

We are not quite so out of reach here in Blighty. That Wild gun Trump likes to stick his oar in just cuz of a certain golf course. I'm pretty sure he thinks he now has rights to Scotland & will throw what weight around that he can ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-37633524

by bungobaggins Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:59 pm

I had cooled down, and was going to come here to post some funny videos about the election, and share a blog with you all that I've been actively reading for the past year by one of the few people who had predicted a Trump win since this all began. I even wanted to talk about the electoral college, offer a "shoe on the other foot" scenario, and explain why I think it's an important institution for our country. I also wanted to explain how I view Trump and what I hope for from his presidency.

I stood by Trump and voted for him and was ultimately shocked at how close the vote was in Minnesota. Like you all, I was not expecting to exist in the reality of a Trump win.

But I come back and see all the same Hitler comparisons and equating Trump's victory to racist, sexist, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic supporters. And I know it's not all of you, but it really hurts me. When you say that's why Trump won, you're calling me those names. You're accusing me of all those horrible things.

I've tried to be nice to everyone on this forum in the past. I can't remember getting in a spat with someone or intentionally insulting anyone. I hope it's not the case; I try to be a kind person on the internet, because there is a lot of hate from all sides.

I'm glad he won. I won't apologize for that. He's the candidate I chose and I wanted him to win. But in some aspects I wish he hadn't. This just guarantees more making fun of his supporters and Trump bashing on this forum for the next four years. And let's not even mention those astro-turf riots. I am worried for inauguration day.

I would like to share my excitement with you, and what I've mentioned above, but you won't appreciate it. A couple of you here seem to despise me if your comments about Trump supporters are taken at face value. I think it's best if I let you have your echo chamber. In fact, I feel like I've wasted my time writing this post, but at least it's more explanatory than me slamming the door a few days ago.

Now I'm going for a walk to cool off, literally, it's 40F outside.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:24 pm

{{{First thank you at least for the good grace to say your parting words Bungo if that is what they become, though I for one hope not. It speaks to the character of you we have come to know and why you got elected Mayor of this place in the first instance.

'I had cooled down, and was going to come here to post some funny videos about the election, and share a blog with you all that I've been actively reading for the past year by one of the few people who had predicted a Trump win since this all began. I even wanted to talk about the electoral college, offer a "shoe on the other foot" scenario, and explain why I think it's an important institution for our country. I also wanted to explain how I view Trump and what I hope for from his presidency.'- Bungo

I would also like to hear your thoughts on all these things (and see the funny vids! Mad

).

Trump's rhetoric frightens many, fear he might carry through on a lot of it frightens folk even more.

But I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you see it. Its nice to share views with similar minded people, but more fun to debate wit those of opposing views, and more chance to learn as the Doctor might point out were he here to remind me of that, and not fictional.

So far we have mainly traded in slogans of the type you mention true, but of late, if you look between those you will see the start of some more substantive debate on what it all means, what policies will he actually adopt, who will he appoint? ect.

Its very much still all fresh and raw, you may have cooled down perhaps, not all have maybe but please don't write off just yet the capacity of folks here to give a fair hearing to a well put argument.

Change always upsets folk, and when its into the unknown that makes it more upsetting, but the very thing most needed at such times is that people of opposing views share and discuss them and seek out their common ground, and compromises, anything less is failure.

So here is very much hoping that was not the last we hear from you Bungo. I'd much rather hear and engage with what you have to say than live in ignorance of it. pub

}}}}}

by Lancebloke Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:39 pm

Bungo - thanks for coming back to explain how you feel here. I haven't been party to most of this particular conversation but it has been played out in many places with often divisive results.

Unfortunately the unsilent minority of Trump supporters are making everyone else look bad. And there is also the fact that America had voted for someone who had literally said he will do some exceptionally unsavoury things.

I have seen lots of things from Trump voters who don't believe for a second that he would do those things but that he is the right option for change. I don't know where you stand on some of the more controversial things that he has said and even now on some of the things that he seems to be reigning in on but I suppose he problem is that from the outside, lots of people have cast a vote for someone who has said he will do horrible things.

People also cast votes for Hillary Clinton who is clearly taking part in some dodgy activities herself. She should never have been the democratic candidate as people have had enough of what she stands for.

I haven't kept close to a lot of this discussion but again... if you look at the comparisons people have made, I don't think Hitler made lots of noise about killing Jews before he got in to power. Trump has made those kinds of noises and managed to get in to power. This is why people assume that voters support the racist, sexist, misogynist, homophobic and xenophobic things that have defined a lot of his campaign.

How would you explain why you have voted for him and your position on some of the deplorable things he has stated he would do... or has done? You take offence to it so I can only assume you do not support them.

Maybe if people could see your point they may also see why the situation is now as it is.

by azriel Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:29 pm

Bungo, I'm so sorry that Ive offended you. My remarks are about the man & not aimed at you or any other supporter. This is, one hopes, still a free thinking, free speaking society but, that doesn't mean I can be rude & deliberately set out to hurt anyone, I don't want that ! I for one would love it if you still stayed here. Just sleep on it, see what gives Smile

Opinions will always be emotional swords, you cant change people having opinions but, I think we are all mature enough to realise & accept if someone who we had doubts about actually called our bluff & did some good in the world ? Have a wander & drop by again Smile

by halfwise Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:37 pm

Bungo - I think the election of Trump was the bitch-slap the liberal crowd needed in order to realize just how much of an echo chamber they created. I've been posting examples of that, but a short recap is in order here:

• Half the country was administering the proverbial thunk with a 2x4 to the mule: "sorry about the pain, but you weren't paying attention".
• I think Jonathon Pie pulled it all together nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs
• Reporters from both the New York Times and Washington Post admitted that not only was there an echo chamber, but it was deliberately constructed by the editors.

So I've found it a much needed wake-up call. I think it would be a really good idea if you could explain your feelings. Most people need to understand why the other things Trump stood for were more important than the petty and mean spirited things he said that seemed to resonate with so many of his followers. If you could do that, it would be good for all.

by Mrs Figg Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:04 am

bungobaggins wrote:I had cooled down, and was going to come here to post some funny videos about the election, and share a blog with you all that I've been actively reading for the past year by one of the few people who had predicted a Trump win since this all began. I even wanted to talk about the electoral college, offer a "shoe on the other foot" scenario, and explain why I think it's an important institution for our country. I also wanted to explain how I view Trump and what I hope for from his presidency.

I stood by Trump and voted for him and was ultimately shocked at how close the vote was in Minnesota. Like you all, I was not expecting to exist in the reality of a Trump win.

But I come back and see all the same Hitler comparisons and equating Trump's victory to racist, sexist, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic supporters. And I know it's not all of you, but it really hurts me. When you say that's why Trump won, you're calling me those names. You're accusing me of all those horrible things.

I've tried to be nice to everyone on this forum in the past. I can't remember getting in a spat with someone or intentionally insulting anyone. I hope it's not the case; I try to be a kind person on the internet, because there is a lot of hate from all sides.

I'm glad he won. I won't apologize for that. He's the candidate I chose and I wanted him to win. But in some aspects I wish he hadn't. This just guarantees more making fun of his supporters and Trump bashing on this forum for the next four years. And let's not even mention those astro-turf riots. I am worried for inauguration day.

I would like to share my excitement with you, and what I've mentioned above, but you won't appreciate it. A couple of you here seem to despise me if your comments about Trump supporters are taken at face value. I think it's best if I let you have your echo chamber. In fact, I feel like I've wasted my time writing this post, but at least it's more explanatory than me slamming the door a few days ago.

Now I'm going for a walk to cool off, literally, it's 40F outside.

Bungs dearest Bungo. listen up old chap. I totally respect you and your opinion.
I have been guilty of the boring Hitler crappy comments I admit it. and I am sorry but its just me being a sarcastic idiot, don't take any notice.
I understand your excitement, it must be flipping electric, I mean its the great unknown, and I get it.
please do cool off some more and come back and I promise you will have not one more squeak from me about Hitler. Razz

you gotta admit, it is bloody bizarre stuff. Shocked

by Forest Shepherd Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:34 am

I hope you stick out all this politics stuff Bungo. I need my fellow Minnesotan* here on the forum, for moral support!

*Technically I've lived in California twice as long as in Minnesota now, but I don't like to get hung up over silly details like that.

by malickfan Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:50 am

Forest Shepherd wrote:I hope you stick out all this politics stuff Bungo. I need my fellow Minnesotan* here on the forum, for moral support!

*Technically I've lived in California twice as long as in Minnesota now, but I don't like to get hung up over silly details like that.

California counts as the Pacific Northwest? (does Pacific Northwest mean the northwest of the US western seaboard, or the northwest of the ocean?) I'd always assumed you were from Oregon or Washington state etc.

by halfwise Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:01 pm

Some people *might* consider Northern California to be Pacific Northwest. But to qualify for that you have to go north of San Francisco.

Northern and Southern California are two different places...er...planets, really.

by Mrs Figg Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:56 pm

if this place has been an echo chamber then its time for Bungo to come back and debate how he feels. there has only been a one-sided argument because we haven't heard the other side of the coin. obviously there has been some amount of incredulity from non-Trump supporters but I defy anyone to say that debate would be stifled here, because that's not our way. we have had some massive ding-dongs over politics in the past, but politics tends to bring out the ding-dongyness, ie brexit Scottish indiref and it does get heated at times, but if you go bungo we wont get to hear your opinion because you have never explained it. ok you may have been afraid we would all pile in and gang up on you, but that is not what will happen, we are not bullies. I have been a banal prat and mentioned Hitler but that's just me being a banal prat in an echo chamber. so please do debate it and feel free to discuss your views, they are valuable, and I promise you that I personally will not judge you or demean your opinions. You are more important to us than Trump anyway. obviously most people didn't want Trump and are worried, but that doesn't mean you cant express your views.

by Forest Shepherd Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:14 pm

malickfan wrote:
Forest Shepherd wrote:I hope you stick out all this politics stuff Bungo. I need my fellow Minnesotan* here on the forum, for moral support!

*Technically I've lived in California twice as long as in Minnesota now, but I don't like to get hung up over silly details like that.

California counts as the Pacific Northwest? (does Pacific Northwest mean the northwest of the US western seaboard, or the northwest of the ocean?) I'd always assumed you were from Oregon or Washington state etc.

Aherm. Well I changed it to Northern California in my bio now. "Pacific Northwest" is considered Oregon and up (north), although the exact boundary can include the far north of California too.

I guess I just didn't want to be counted as a Californian at the time of writing "pacific northwest".

by Bluebottle Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:50 pm

I think Dave Chappelle put it perfectly: "We just elected a tv personality and an internet troll our president."

I think George RR Martin put it perfectly: "Trump was the least qualified candidate ever nominated by a major party for the presidency. Come January, he will become the worst president in American history, and a dangerously unstable player on the world stage."

Just because decent people, like Bungo, voted for him, doesn't change who Trump is, what his opinions are, or how bad the next four years will be.

I'll let Bernie Sanders finish:

by David H Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:18 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Just because decent people, like Bungo, voted for him, doesn't change who Trump is

I respectfully disagree, Blue. It changes him to the extent that he will soon be President of the United States of America. There's a level of respect that is due to the structures and institutions of our democracy to which he's now entitled.

I've disagreed with every President of my lifetime at some point, and I expect to disagree with this one too. But even if he goes down in flames like Richard Nixon, he's still entitled to a certain degree respect, and to a certain degree of pity.
{{{Personally, I wouldn't take that job for anything in the World pale

}}}

by Bluebottle Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:46 pm

Well, the Bernie video sums him up for me, up until now, the two first quotes have defined him. The Bernie video shows his only way to avoid inhabiting those quotes. Conversely you have this;

Roxy, I know my predictions have let you down in the past, but personally, I don’t think this guy can make it a year without committing an impeachable crime. If he does manage to be a douche nozzle without breaking the law for four years, we’ll make it through those four years. And three years from now we’ll fight like hell for our candidate and we’ll win and they’ll lose and this time they’ll lose for good. Honey, it’ll be your first vote.

Aaron Sorkin in open letter to his underage daughter
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/11/aaron-sorkin-donald-trump-president-letter-daughter

I'm sorry, I can never respect the choice the american populace has made, it will hurt them badly, and us, the rest of the world, as well. Accept it? It is reality, but I'm with every of these quotes. The unacceptable must be fought at every turn, or it wins. Basic human rights is a start, let's build from there.

by halfwise Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:50 pm

Well, I'm with David: gotta accept the process and despite any expectations, fervently hope he does well. The Electoral college is designed to protect regionalism, and we saw that come into play - not a flaw so much as a design.

We already see signs of him growing into the office, if fitfully. He posted a tweet complaining about protests, then it was deleted and replaced with something more presidential. I like to imagine a furious Kelly-Anne Conway giving him a tongue-lashing over what it means to be president, and him sheepishly accepting the correction.

by Bluebottle Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:00 pm

I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no. And this is simply the mistake the both of you might have been making the whole time. You both thought this was a neglible choice. I'll put it as simply and blatantly as I can. "It might not have been." If anyone accepts Trumps value statements throughout his campaign, I'm sorry. That is not an acceptable stance to hold as a human being. Excusable? Maybe. Acceptable? No. You are both banking on Trump being a differnet president than a candidate. Him being the same president as his candidature implies takes this world back to a moral dark age. I hope and I pray that you're right. But where on earth does that faith come from?!

Put simply, for eight years Obama has, with the republicans kicking and screaming along the way, nugded the US and the world in a positive direction. Is he perfect? Far from it. But in the range of plus and minuses, he is in the end, whether to a smaller or larger degree, a plus. The republicans villified him for eight years, but look at his handover speech.. he comes out of it seeming the one decent man in this whole debacle.

Trump has already sent the financial markets the peso etc etc spirraling downwards. I'll let that stand as a good metaphore for his potential impact as a character and as a president.

by Bluebottle Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:07 pm

Sorkin Girls,

Well the world changed late last night in a way I couldn’t protect us from. That’s a terrible feeling for a father. I won’t sugarcoat it—this is truly horrible. It’s hardly the first time my candidate didn’t win (in fact it’s the sixth time) but it is the first time that a thoroughly incompetent pig with dangerous ideas, a serious psychiatric disorder, no knowledge of the world and no curiosity to learn has.

And it wasn’t just Donald Trump who won last night—it was his supporters too. The Klan won last night. White nationalists. Sexists, racists and buffoons. Angry young white men who think rap music and Cinco de Mayo are a threat to their way of life (or are the reason for their way of life) have been given cause to celebrate. Men who have no right to call themselves that and who think that women who aspire to more than looking hot are shrill, ugly, and otherwise worthy of our scorn rather than our admiration struck a blow for misogynistic shitheads everywhere. Hate was given hope. Abject dumbness was glamorized as being “the fresh voice of an outsider” who’s going to “shake things up.” (Did anyone bother to ask how? Is he going to re-arrange the chairs in the Roosevelt Room?) For the next four years, the President of the United States, the same office held by Washington and Jefferson, Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt, F.D.R., J.F.K. and Barack Obama, will be held by a man-boy who’ll spend his hours exacting Twitter vengeance against all who criticize him (and those numbers will be legion). We’ve embarrassed ourselves in front of our children and the world.

And the world took no time to react. The Dow futures dropped 700 points overnight. Economists are predicting a deep and prolonged recession. Our NATO allies are in a state of legitimate fear. And speaking of fear, Muslim-Americans, Mexican-Americans and African-Americans are shaking in their shoes. And we’d be right to note that many of Donald Trump’s fans are not fans of Jews. On the other hand, there is a party going on at ISIS headquarters. What wouldn’t we give to trade this small fraction of a man for Richard Nixon right now?

So what do we do?

First of all, we remember that we’re not alone. A hundred million people in America and a billion more around the world feel exactly the same way we do.

Second, we get out of bed. The Trumpsters want to see people like us (Jewish, “coastal elites,” educated, socially progressive, Hollywood…) sobbing and wailing and talking about moving to Canada. I won’t give them that and neither will you. Here’s what we’ll do…

…we’ll fucking fight. (Roxy, there’s a time for this kind of language and it’s now.) We’re not powerless and we’re not voiceless. We don’t have majorities in the House or Senate but we do have representatives there. It’s also good to remember that most members of Trump’s own party feel exactly the same way about him that we do. We make sure that the people we sent to Washington—including Kamala Harris—take our strength with them and never take a day off.

We get involved. We do what we can to fight injustice anywhere we see it—whether it’s writing a check or rolling up our sleeves. Our family is fairly insulated from the effects of a Trump presidency so we fight for the families that aren’t. We fight for a woman to keep her right to choose. We fight for the First Amendment and we fight mostly for equality—not for a guarantee of equal outcomes but for equal opportunities. We stand up.

America didn’t stop being America last night and we didn’t stop being Americans and here’s the thing about Americans: Our darkest days have always—always—been followed by our finest hours.

Roxy, I know my predictions have let you down in the past, but personally, I don’t think this guy can make it a year without committing an impeachable crime. If he does manage to be a douche nozzle without breaking the law for four years, we’ll make it through those four years. And three years from now we’ll fight like hell for our candidate and we’ll win and they’ll lose and this time they’ll lose for good. Honey, it’ll be your first vote.

The battle isn’t over, it’s just begun. Grandpa fought in World War II and when he came home this country handed him an opportunity to make a great life for his family. I will not hand his granddaughter a country shaped by hateful and stupid men. Your tears last night woke me up, and I’ll never go to sleep on you again.

Love,

Dad

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/11/aaron-sorkin-donald-trump-president-letter-daughter

by halfwise Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:18 pm

Oh, you totally fight against his bad tendencies as president, you don't just meekly accept them. But you fight via the established process - congress is designed to keep him in check. Of course, they need a lot of support and not so subtle nudging in order to do that, being the political creatures that they are.

What you can't do is suggest that the election was invalid, or that the choice made was invalid. There were a lot of people who knew he was spewing garbage, but they also saw things they liked, and on balance decided the change in direction he represented outweighed his all too obvious failings.

So you have to let them have that direction, while doing everything you can to help the system squash his more appalling tendencies. Myself, I like neither the direction nor his tendencies, but I like even less a system that lets itself be torn apart.

I totally agree with the protesters pointing out the fault in the man, but where they go wrong is claiming fault in the system. The fault may be there, but I don't want the man and the system to be confused. Give him a chance to actually DO something as president, then protest that.