Star Wars [2]

From a plot perspective- David

Thats sort of my point and feeling's throughout watching- everything was for a plot perspective- which is fine thats how writing works- but you shouldn't be able to see it happening so obviously.

To go back to Luke- we meet Luke only initially as part of an ongoing story we are already watching- the story of R2 and C3-P0- its only after they arrive at Lukes that focus switches to him from the droids- this is a good example of covering up a plot perspective as hopefully the viewer is already invested in the story of the droids and their characters to immediately notice the plot convenience or even that the focus has completely shifted to Luke- the trick is to make it feel organic even when its not.

In this film everything felt to me like a plot contrivance I could clearly see. Like looking at a painting and not being able to see or enjoy the picture because all the brush strokes are really, really obvious.

Petty Tyrant wrote:I said in my review there was nothing wrong with the set up- only her character doesn't fit it. She is way to skilled and what we see her do looks tough and dangerous- yet she does it for less than a days food- which long term would not possibly work as she would be expending more energy to get the food than she is taking in. And why doesn't she take her scrap and sell elsewhere?- rather than to that 1 fat guy who gives her bugger all for it?- does she have to sell to him, is he the only dealer on the whole planet- who knows? the film doesn't bother telling us why she does this. She just does because.

It just occurred to me to put this in perspective.  Petty: you are clearly a talented computer graphic artist, a comedic author, a student of history....yet your job uses none of these things.  Why?  Because life is not as simple as the free market.  Logic doesn't entirely pervade the story of our lives, far from it.  In Rey's case I'd be more concerned about how she acquired those skills rather than why she's not employing them.

Petty: you are clearly a talented computer graphic artist, a comedic author, a student of history....yet your job uses none of these things. - Halfy

Ah yes Halfy but the difference there is Rey is clearly not a lazy easily distracted drunken bum (And even so you can bet your furry arse if I was only getting paid enough to eat less than 1 meal a day when other options were nearby I wouldn't still be in my job) And strangely enough I use all those attributes in my job- general history and politics is a good one for dealing with elderly- I can talk about old radio shows - had a great conversation today about Round the Horn-and historic events, help spark their memories ect, I do artwork with three residents regularly, its good for slowing the pace of their dementia, and I do crosswords with several others for the writing, and the comedic inclination comes in keeping spirits up, cracking jokes, telling them humorous tales that sort of thing.

I rather figured the 'portions' were by day. And since she's just a small slip of a girl she could get by.

Yep, it's almost like saying farmers don't need all the Maths and Physics that Dave knows, whereas anyone who knows a farmer knows they basically have to know everything in order to keep the shoestring operation going. (shoe string in terms of profits - a LOT of money flows through a farm).

Pettytyrant101 wrote:From a plot perspective- David

Thats sort of my point and feeling's throughout watching- everything was for a plot perspective- which is fine thats how writing works- but you shouldn't be able to see it happening so obviously.
....
In this film everything felt to me like a plot contrivance I could clearly see. Like looking at a painting and not being able to see or enjoy the picture because all the brush strokes are really, really obvious.

I have this trouble with a lot of movies, and it gets worse as the years go by.
The more I learn about how they're made the easier it is to see the cracks.
But beer helps.

Beer and buckie always help!

And I am not convinced its just something I am noticing as I get older, I've always been a close watcher and critic and endless waffler on the subject- ask Nagual he has endured a fair bit of it, and all the repetitions!- no, I suspect the real truth is that modern blockbusters, are by and large, shit. Poorly written because the aim is no longer to tell a good stroy, but to put on a visual circus. Cinema is in strong competition for folks attentions, and they can get better stories on TV now at near enough cinema levels of quality so it cant compete there any more- what it can offer is what TV cant-= a massive screen full of dazzling effects. Everything else, including plot structure and composition is a secondary matter.



'I rather figured the 'portions' were by day. And since she's just a small slip of a girl she could get by.'- Halfy

Its still shit pay- the town seems pretty close, when they go there its the same day they leave, so it must be within fairly easy driving distance- why not go sell her shit there? Or instead of being away in the desert for most of the day out of touch with everyone, so if her family did turn up looking for her, she wouldn't even know about till she got back- spend less time in the town doing some mechanics or translating droid for someone- I'm sure it pays better than less than a days food, and she could stay in constant touch in case her family come back- its a weird way to wait on your family returning- buggering off every day into a desert.

Putting aside Daves misgiving about Lukes farming credentials, and the fact its a cliché (I did say there was nothing original in the original SW film) his introduction can be done with very little explanation because much of its self explanatory. Luke fits the setting and background he is giving, his actions suit his aspirations and fears. Rey's don't.

yes they do.

You will have to extrapolate that Figg with some examples of how.

The only aspiration or reason I can think of given for her situation is that she is waiting on her family- yet she spends most of her day in the middle of a desert out of touch with everyone scavenging- she could miss her family completely and never even know it, or a message from them.

With Luke we know his aspirations are to leave the farm, follow his mates and go to the Academy. We see he is frustrate at his life, doesn't understand why his uncle won't lt him go and is a bit pissed off at things. And we see that he is very loyal to family (important trait in the long run) as even when offered the chance of escape he refuses for their sake and only their deaths free him of that obligation. His circumstances, his lifestyle and his character are all interwoven in the plot so that one can express and give insight of the other.

Rey on the otherhand, her, um, hold on, there must be something can think of that makes sense, or sheds light on her nature or character about her scenario- oh yeah- she is inexplicably kind to stray driods for no good reason.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You will have to extrapolate that Figg with some examples of how.

The only aspiration or reason I can think of given for her situation is that she is waiting on her family- yet she spends most of her day in the middle of a desert out of touch with everyone scavenging- she could miss her family completely and never even know it, or a message from them.

With Luke we know his aspirations are to leave the farm, follow his mates and go to the Academy. We see he is frustrate at his life, doesn't understand why his uncle won't lt him go and is a bit pissed off at things. And we see that he is very loyal to family (important trait in the long run) as even when offered the chance of escape he refuses for their sake and only their deaths free him of that obligation. His circumstances, his lifestyle and his character are all interwoven in the plot so that one can express and give insight of the other.

Rey on the otherhand, her, um, hold on, there must be something can think of that makes sense, or sheds light on her nature or character about her scenario- oh yeah- she is inexplicably kind to stray driods for no good reason.

oh will I?
erm she is earning a living, most people travel to work each day, how is that in any way not feasible? I should imagine most people of her area know she is waiting for her family, as she would have told them years ago, they could even have seen her being separated and understand that if the family did return that they would give messages. But this is getting into absurd nit picking territories so I will stop there.

Well good story telling means we don't need such things spelling out in great detail. Even a person who has never seen Luke Skywalker before can understand Rey's character and scenario from the outline we get. In a short time we understand she is a girl living alone on her wits, we see her struggling to survive in a hostile environment, we see she can survive on meagre scratchings which no doubt has made her a tough cookie (with a soft heart) her compassion to the droid saves her from being the classic hard bitten kick ass babe. She shows the capacity to be honest and loyal in the face of great temptation, we see her capable of quick thinking bravery, we see that she doesn't like physical contact because she isn't used to being cared for or protected. She doesn't want to leave her home because although it sucks its all she knows and one day her family may return, a bit like a myth that she has internalised and cant shake off. She actually needs her family myth to ground her and give her the strength to go on, when she is offered the chance to leave she resists until the all seeing priestess tells her they will never return and she has a kind of nervous breakdown, the house of cards she has built up since childhood is torn down which allows her freedom and lets the Force enter her soul. Years of working on scrap engines has made her capable of making things out of nothing, problem solving skills which help her become a good engineer. There are many skills which she doesn't yet realise she has and its a period of discovery and renewal for her.

I think that's good enough a reason, and sheds light on her character.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Rey on the otherhand, her, um, hold on, there must be something can think of that makes sense

OK then, if you're asking for speculation...

Food ration economies are actually very common in 21st century Earth. You typically find them in refugee camps where the residents don't have a legal right to work for wages in the country they're living in. They're therefore forced to do business in a black market barter economy, and food rations, which are universally valued, become the standard currency.

So what if Rey is from a different planet originally, and doesn't have citizenship in the town, or even on the planet?
That would force her to survive as an illegal alien on the fringes of society, feeding herself by her wits.
And what if she got separated from her family along the way?

This is actually a lot more common story in the world today than "farmboy wants to see the great wide world".

In a short time we understand she is a girl living alone on her wits- Figg

But we are never told why.

'we see her struggling to survive in a hostile environment'

When there is a seemingly less hostile one just down the road. Again we are never told why she chooses to be out there save she is waiting on her family- and that doesn't make sense with her spending her days on her ownin the middle of nowhere.

'we see she can survive on meagre scratchings which no doubt has made her a tough cookie (with a soft heart)'

It looked to me like she was surviving on less than you need to live- less than a days food whilst expanding a full days worth of energy getting the scrap. And why would living a hard life give her a soft heart?

'her compassion to the droid saves her from being the classic hard bitten kick ass babe'

No its just a handy plot device to get the two characters together with the minimum of set up or introduction- the set up couldn't be more minimal- she just stumbles across it being stolen and rescues it then it just follows her.

' She shows the capacity to be honest and loyal in the face of great temptation'

Loyalty to a droid thats no use to her, and she didn't want to follow her just before she inexplicably turns down a lot of food for it. Again we are given no reason for iher instant loyalty to the droid, it just is and we are just supposed to accept thats how it is. But we are given no reasons for it, character or plot.

'She doesn't want to leave her home because although it sucks its all she knows and one day her family may return'

So she chooses to wait for them in trhe a desert, on her own, out of contact with everyone? Even if she has folk who will take a message they could arrive and leave before she even gets home form the scavenging. Again setting and stated motivation dont match up.




Dave- that would be fine, if any of it were anywhere in the film- one line would have done explaining she is not allowed to trade in town or something- anything to explain her inconsistent actions. But uit aint there.

I think you're gnawing a little too much at this bone Petty. Truly these complaints seem to be concerned with what kind of story this is, and not how well this story is being told.

This is a fantasy-sci-fi adventure story that is told with basic themes and recognizable tropes. It is fast-paced, thoroughly entertaining, and also character-driven. 

Not only is it quite beside the point to argue about how Rey could possibly be making more money in a different job (like focusing on illogical science in a Doctor Who episode), it is also unfair to claim that her character is simply "done wrong" when there exists explanations for why she has become stuck in a rut. As we learn throughout the movie, she suffers from the mistaken belief that her family are going to return to her. She is also quite young, and lacks confidence in herself and does not understand who she is yet.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-george-awakens

I think you're gnawing a little too much at this bone Petty.- Forest

I aint gnawing crap Forest- I would quite happily have left it at my summing up of this section in my review- but others wished to question my points further (which is fair enough), obliging replies thus making it seem I have more of a bone to pick than I do- my original point, and I stand fully by it, is that this film begs comparisons with the original SW because it basically rewrites it- and when comparison is made between how the characters of Luke and Rey are established and explained in their settings- Luke is done pretty damn well, and Rey just isn't- is sloppily written and more concerned with moving from point A to B in the plot and hitting the originals films bulletin point moments than in anything else.

I don't think it ruins the film or anything- hell its not anything like the worst thing in this film- but it is a comparison and illustration of how its not doing anywhere near as good a job as the film it rips off at every turn of establishing and filling out character.

People feel you're being way persnickety. Not that you don't make good points, but there's plenty of plot holes in the original series to pick on as well.

I do have to agree there's not as much care that went into the new one as the original.

The reason Petty is belittling and pulling holes in her character is because he doesn't like the fact that Rey is a female Jedi. We wouldn't be having this conversation if she had been a boy.

I disagree - he's pretty sex neutral. I think in fact more people would be making similar comments if Rey were male. Daisy charmed her way through it; not so much by being deliberately charming but by being a cute young female. It evinces more of a protective response.

The reason Petty is belittling and pulling holes in her character is because he doesn't like the fact that Rey is a female Jedi. We wouldn't be having this conversation if she had been a boy.- Figg

Honestly? The only thing being belittled here right now is me Figg. By you.
After all this time you think I judge a piece of writing purely on what sex the character is? Really?
I don't even know what to say that, I should be offended, and I am, but more than that I am bitterly disappointed you would hold that view as the reasons for me being critical of a piece of writing. Its dumbfounds me.
Its just a low cheap shot because you don't like what I am saying.

Take a look again at my own writing- the last three stories I have put on the forum all have female leads.  Read my review of Heaven Sent in which espouse the virtues as a director of Rachel Talalay- if I think its good I will say so, if I think its bad I will say so- the sex of the creative person involved is no matter at all to me and doesn't even come into consideration.

well you don't have the curtesy to reply to my posts by acknowledging that some of my points may have merit, I give you logical reasons and you just ignore them. All you do is stubbornly go on the offensive without even really reading what I have to say. Also you have just focused on Rey and tried to fabricate ridiculous objections which you don't do to the male characters, you have already called into question her skills which is gender based, as you wouldn't have called into question a males skills in the same situation. It wouldn't have even been an issue if Rey had been male. be as offended as you like.

He's been picking apart Finn too - but people jumped on Rey, so he's been responding. But I stick to my point that if it had been a boy, people in general would be more critical. Look what happened to young Anakin. If that boy had been female everyone would have been saying "how cute!"

you don't have the curtesy to reply to my posts by acknowledging that some of my points may have merit, I give you logical reasons and you just ignore them.- Figg

I did not ignore them, I addressed each of your points in turn with a counter-argument saying why I did not agree with them. How is that ignoring what you said?

'Also you have just focused on Rey and tried to fabricate ridiculous objections which you don't do to the male characters'

Ive only reviewed the first 20 minutes of the film! And I have been so scathing of the male characters in that I couldn't even remember most of their names- referring to them as 'not the hero' one and 'Vader-lite' and I argued that Finn's sudden realisation he was on the bad guys side was stupid and also didn't make any sense or fit the scenario.
The only reason I have discussed Rey more at all is because you and others keep bringing her up!

'you wouldn't have called into question a males skills in the same situation'

That too stupid and insulting to warrant a serious reply, as is, 'It wouldn't have even been an issue if Rey had been male.'

your counter arguments fall under the category 'I haven't listened to a word you said as I am right and you are wrong'. Try having a debate with that.

No they fall into the category of ' I have listened to what you have to say and I disagree with your analysis based on the evidence, and here is why'.
And that is a debate.
I am sorry you seem upset that I don't agree with your points, but I am not going to say other than I think just to appease you.

But because I disagree with you I do not deserve to be attacked and accused of basing my analysis on sexism and misogyny.
That's not a debate.
Its abuse and an attempt to bully. And I don't need to put up with that so I'll take a break for a while.