Star Wars [2]
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Mrs Figg Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:50 pm
Rey is a good exmaple- there is no internal reason why she is a good pilot-
I didn't buy it with a female. There is no explanation of her skills or why she has them. Or if having those skills we she scavenges for a living when she could easily make more money simpler a few miles away using the obvious skills she has. Petty
I call you out for misogynistic statements like the ones above and you flounce off. so be it.
I didn't buy it with a female. There is no explanation of her skills or why she has them. Or if having those skills we she scavenges for a living when she could easily make more money simpler a few miles away using the obvious skills she has. Petty
I call you out for misogynistic statements like the ones above and you flounce off. so be it.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by halfwise Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:55 pm
His statement about not buying it with a female was a direct response to my saying people were more likely to buy her skills because she's female. He was deliberately making a non-sexist statement....but you have to read what everyone says so you can put it in proper context - you are reading it completely backwards in fact. I should be offended that you are not reading and responding to my posts. 
Petty's responses have been the same to everyone. No need to feel singled out, or to take offence.
Petty's responses have been the same to everyone. No need to feel singled out, or to take offence.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Mrs Figg Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:08 pm
I didn't misinterpret his statement.
Tell you what. Seeing as I am such a horrible nasty bully I will take a break instead of Petty. Please do return and continue your deconstruction of the first female Jedi, I am sure that whatever you say will be correct, I can hardly have anything useful or insightful to add to the debate anyway.
Tell you what. Seeing as I am such a horrible nasty bully I will take a break instead of Petty. Please do return and continue your deconstruction of the first female Jedi, I am sure that whatever you say will be correct, I can hardly have anything useful or insightful to add to the debate anyway.
Last edited by Mrs Figg on Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Radaghast Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:20 pm
Agreed on all counts and many points are ones that occurred to me as well. Things happen in the plot solely to move the plot along. They don't grow organically from the circumstances.Pettytyrant101 wrote:Crabbit review of Force Awakens- part 2
- Spoiler:
Compare it with Luke's introduction which is his aunt calling his name repeatedly moments before we see his face.
And what does our heroine do for a living?- well she searches for scrap among a graveyard of spaceships, and then she sells it to some dodgy buggers for barely enough food to live on each day.
As a concept that's fine- but the problem is every other part of the context its presented in doesn't fit.
Lets start with Rey herself- she seems smart, intelligent, competent, she can handle herself in a fight, good with mechanics and she speaks Droid.
I'd like to repeat that last one with some emphasis- she speaks FUCKING droid.
Not even Luke spoke droid, he had a little display in the cockpit of his xwing told him what R2 was on about- C3PO did the translating for R2 most of the time. And no one else we see in this entire film speaks droid apart from her. Surely then that's a bit of a major skill to have in the employment stakes?
Worse there a perfectly good town with a variety of jobs nearby- I bet even the waitresses get paid more than half a days food portions. And she speaks fucking droid!!!
At first I thought she was a slave of some sort forced into this work- and the scene where she is preparing her salvage to sell under watchful eyes reinforces the notion- but then she just wanders off without a care- I am supposed to believe she chooses to live like this? She speaks fucking droid!!
Sorry, but there is no match up between circumstances and character. She says as the excuse she is waiting on her family- but that doesnt explain why she doent wait in the town with a decent job and somewhere to live- when she so clearly has the skills too. Nor do we have any investment in her waiting because she only tells us she is, we never see her pine for them she never talks about them, she doesn't stare mournfuly at the horizn over them to emotional orchestral John Williams scores- nothing. Its just an excuse in the plot to explain stuff that doesnt make any sense about her, or worse a badly planted plot contrivance for a later film.
Luke was a farmer- his circumstances made sense. Nor was he already a competent fighter or used to braving things on his own. He was basically ordinary in terms of how he lived, mundane even and that was the point. They are trying to replicate that here with a different character and setting. But for the setting she is presented as being from she simply doesn't fit it and she is too extraordinary already.
And then there is her piloting skills- with Luke its a stretch but they at least furnish us with an explanation- he piloted for fun through the canyons of his home world as a relief from the monotony of his farming life.
She has a hover bike thing- and those type of vehicles in SW seem to be the equivalent to a car. So how come she can jump into the Falcon and pilot it like she's been flying stuff like that all her life?
The scene in which she meets B-B ball droid is particular poor.
We get a very cut-down version of the jawas and sand crawler- cut down to one jawa like character on an alien horse stealing the droid. And it just sort of happens, out of nowhere, she just hears a scuffle and there we have- two central characters meet.
She rescues the droid, speaks some droid to it, tells it where the nearest town is, some local hazards to avoid and turns to go on her way and the droid follows her, and she lets it. And that's how they hook up. Well that's memorable. At least with Luke there was a purpose to his need of droids. This just happens to get the droid with the hero.
Why does the droid choose to follow her? Why does she take a droid along if she has no plans to sell or profit by it- what use is it to her? And why are we presented with a SW style shot of them walking off together across the sand before a sunset like they are best buddies when they only just poorly met?
Back on the Death Star- sorry planet killer whatever, Princess Leia, sorry the not the hero bloke captured at start but playing the exact same role as Leia- source of the info stashed in the droid and person who will name the planet to go booom first- is being tortured by not Vader for the location of the Rebel Base.
Again however in comparison with the original it doesnt have much impact- its not his home world under threat, and we barely know anything about the guy- he is just some rebel dude they caught. And unlike Leia he is not going to be a part of the focus of the story- after this they will just forget about him until the end, so the script knows its not worth investing time in him so it doesn't- he performs the role and function but without any attachment to him, he moves the plot along but its not a disguised plot moving, you can see the parts underneath as you watch, moving the script mechanically along.
This occurs all the way through the film. They are more interested in how to we get from this point in the story to that point that they forget it should always at least seem like what is happening is organic, and a product of the character actions. But it doesn't feel like that watching it, because you can see the mechanics too clearly of the script.
You cannot be lulled or fooled into not noticing the underlying mechanics by being caught up in the characters and their predictaments because the predicments are rehashes of another film where it was all done better, and the characters mere plot points which service moving the story along as their primary function.
Rey is a good exmaple- there is no internal reason why she is a good pilot- but there is a plot one, so she can co-pilot the Falcon with Han Solo and make for an 'iconic scene' with the two of them, passing the torch. But it doesn't work because its so obvioulsy contrived to be that way- her mystyerious ability to fly ships, Chewie getting shot moments before and so not being able to co-pilot.
And the Chewie thing is another good exmaple- this is Chewbacca, being shot and wounded- it should be a big deal, but as its purpose is only to get him out the way so she can pilot the script doesnt know how to pitch it- it starts to go for the 'oh no Chewie has been shot' angle but then almost immdiately dumps that and moves on to 'who will pilot now?' which is the contrived point of the whole thing.
So in comparison between Luke and Rey and how we meet them as the leads– Luke had a background and purpose which made sense and a reason to come into contact with Droids, and his skill set matched what we were told about him and his life and what we saw. He was easy top relate to with small day to day troubles, like wanting to go to the Academy or spend more time in town with his mates.
With Rey her lifestyle doesn't make sense, her skill set is far greater than her circumstances, and her reasons for coming into contact with droids is non-existent and has to be contrived, and her skills don't make sense given her situation- why can she speak droid? Where did she learn to fly spaceships? And we don't empathise with her because unlike Luke we don't know what her hopes and dreams are and there is no situation she is struggling against beyond her own self inflicted one of doing a shit job.
And why does she refuse to sell the droid when she has the chance- they only just met she has no emotional attachment to it we have seen? What good is it to her? Thats a lot fo food she is offered for it. And its a droid- its quite clear in the SW universe they are viewed as devices not people, so whay doesn't she sell?
Luke had good reason to go looking for his droids, not just plot ones but personal ones- her reasons are what exactly?- to show she is a nice person?
Oh dear this is giving me a crabbit headache and Im only about 20 minutes into the film.
Last edited by Radaghast on Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by halfwise Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:22 pm
To Figgy:
NEXT FRAME:
Direct response to my statement that people are more likely to buy her skills because she's female. You have misrepresented Petty's statements of saying {her being female didn't influence his views on her skill} into saying {he didn't believe her skills because she's female}.
halfwise wrote:I think Rey got away with implausible skills because it was unexpected - it was kinda cute to have a young girl bitch slap a storm trooper around and jury rig the Falcon. If it had been your typical twenty-something male hero with the same background I don't think the audience would have bought it.
NEXT FRAME:
I didn't buy it with a female. There is no explanation of her skills or why she has them. Or if having those skills we she scavenges for a living when she could easily make more money simpler a few miles away using the obvious skills she has.
Direct response to my statement that people are more likely to buy her skills because she's female. You have misrepresented Petty's statements of saying {her being female didn't influence his views on her skill} into saying {he didn't believe her skills because she's female}.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Radaghast Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:26 pm
Same here. This is the third Star Wars movie featuring a planet-destroying space orb and the 4th 4th SW movie featuring a MacGuffin that needed to be blown up. Enough already. Changing the name of a big planet-destroying space orb from "Death Star" to "Starkiller" is not putting new flesh on old bones.halfwise wrote:If you think of it as comfort food it was ok. But even when Star Wars was being stupid (ewoks, Jar-Jar and love scenes) it still mostly felt innovative. I missed the feeling of something new.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Mrs Figg Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:26 pm
Tell you what. Seeing as I am such a horrible nasty bully I will take a break instead of Petty. Please do return and continue your deconstruction of the first female Jedi, I am sure that whatever you say will be correct, I can hardly have anything useful or insightful to add to the debate anyway.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by halfwise Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:38 pm
Not what was implied. If anything you should have been attacking me for sexism, not Petty. Before you got on that line we were pretty much saying the same things and getting the same responses.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Forest Shepherd Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:43 pm
oops!
I guess I should have instead said that I don't think the questions being brought up by the first 20 minutes of the film warrant this much discussion, because the movie is a simply told story.
I mean I was enjoying the discussion, but then things started looking like an embroiled Doctor Who thread!
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by halfwise Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:46 pm
Yeah, we had a pretty good containment policy for a while, but it broke out of the confinement zone.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by bungobaggins Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:43 pm
bungobaggins wrote:http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-george-awakens
Going to quote myself here. This is a very good, brief, article. I've definitely been feeling the sentiment that the author describes of starting to appreciate what Lucas did now that TFA has made me, and I'm sure a lot of other people, go back to the original movies (even the prequels for some). I think my animosity for the changes to the original trilogy is lightening a little. However, the changes I'll never get over are Vader's "NOOO!" in ROTJ and changing Boba Fett's voice in ESB. I've pretty much gotten over everything else. We can sit here and criticize Lucas (and JJ) but he's given us this amazing galaxy far far away. Maybe some day I'll go back to the prequels, but I think it's too early for that now.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by halfwise Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:51 pm
Yeah, I've gone back and watched the original trilogy, and what he did is just astounding. The prequels have a few things which if fixed would turn them into pretty decent movies as well, but the fixes are pretty impossible. Perhaps some Petty Style editing would improve the prequels, if no plot points are lost.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by halfwise Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:00 pm
From that article, I think this said it all:
It took a unique—well, derivative—sequel to create an atmosphere in which Lucas could be viewed in a new light. The biggest reason Lucas looks better is because “The Force Awakens” is an admission that, thirty-eight years later, the original can’t be topped.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by bungobaggins Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:04 pm
Yeah that summed it up really well. And while I enjoyed TFA a lot, it's not better than ANH.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by malickfan Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:20 pm
bungobaggins wrote:Yeah that summed it up really well. And while I enjoyed TFA a lot, it's not better than ANH.
Yeah, I agree with the points the article was making (even if I'm inclined to think the initial sucess of SW arguably owes much of its sucess to the editors and SFX people). Would it be fair to say Lucas is the superior 'artist' (in terms of worldbuilding, conceptual designs and thematic material) whilst Abrams is the better filmaker (i.e I'd say Abrams is much better at directing actors, set pieces, and camera placement/shot framing).
That said...after Disney paid $4 billion for the rights, and politely, but firmly cast Lucas aside was anyone really expecting anything too surprising?
TFA was arguably more of a reboot for a modern audience than sequel for fans, and I still think it's too early in the Disney era of Star Wars to fully judge how/why it stands or falls on its own merits as the first in the non-lucas SW films...
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Mrs Figg Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:21 pm
I would like to apologise to Petty if I hurt his feelings. I hope he comes back soon because he is far more important for this forum than I ever will be. I will take leave of absence and do other stuff.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:30 pm
It only hurts my feelings Figg because I enjoy your online company and respect you, I think you are an important and vibrant part of this community, so to find after all this time you seem to have such a low opinion of me, yeah that stings. But your apology I accept nonetheless.
And my importance is non-existent- Forumshire was here in spirit before me, with Eldo, and Tin and Orwell and Chris and others and it will hopefully go on after I am gone, if that happens. But its nothing at all without its people, and that means everyone, with no one of more import than any other. You are as much a fabric of this place as the green backdrop, dont you dare think to change that.
And my importance is non-existent- Forumshire was here in spirit before me, with Eldo, and Tin and Orwell and Chris and others and it will hopefully go on after I am gone, if that happens. But its nothing at all without its people, and that means everyone, with no one of more import than any other. You are as much a fabric of this place as the green backdrop, dont you dare think to change that.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by malickfan Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:40 pm
Mrs Figg wrote:I would like to apologise to Petty if I hurt his feelings. I hope he comes back soon because he is far more important for this forum than I ever will be. I will take leave of absence and do other stuff.
Don't be too hasty Figgs, you are both very important to this forum, I'm sure Petty's mature enough to realize you meant no genuine offense (and vice versa), and both of you will be missed if you do something rash, it's just a movie after all, there's been so much nonsense discussed here over the years, it isn't worth falling out over something like this, nothing wrong with being strong willed or enthusiastic about something, and sometimes things can be misinterpreted or offend accidentally.
Whilst Petty seems like quite a strong willed guy and knows where he stands in any discussion (well, his online persona does at least I don't know him 'properly' as such), he's been a very generous, friendly and thoughtful contributor in the time I've been here-as have you), and it would be a shame to see either of you leave.
Not saying either of you is necessarily right though, and I apologize if that came across as me dictating or talking down to either of you, I try and stay out of arguments here, and I'm only saying things as I see them
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by Mrs Figg Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:56 pm
Pettytyrant101 wrote:It only hurts my feelings Figg because I enjoy your online company and respect you, I think you are an important and vibrant part of this community, so to find after all this time you seem to have such a low opinion of me, yeah that stings. But your apology I accept nonetheless.
And my importance is non-existent- Forumshire was here in spirit before me, with Eldo, and Tin and Orwell and Chris and others and it will hopefully go on after I am gone, if that happens. But its nothing at all without its people, and that means everyone, with no one of more import than any other. You are as much a fabric of this place as the green backdrop, dont you dare think to change that.
I have a very high opinion of you, you doofus. I must confess I wrote that deliberately knowing it would piss you off, which was horrible of me, but sometimes you bring out my stinging tail, don't know why but you do. maybe its me, I do have Scorpio ascendant. maybe I need to grow up. whatever. like that's ever going to happen.
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by halfwise Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:02 pm
It would be a horrible loss if you 'grew up'. 
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by malickfan Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:07 pm
Going off on a tangent...whilst the OT remain classic films, I couldn't help but notice something when I recently rewatched Empire
As I said, it's probably nitpicking (in a film about talking robots, gaint space battles and a weird mumbo jumbo mystical 'force' you can't really take the science that seriously anyway), but I feel a little stupid for not realizing this earlier...
- Nitpicking geekery... :
- ...The Space Slug scene...a memorable scene in the film no doubt, but rather mind boggingly stupid one at points, I know it's a movie, but even so I was left
as to how I didn't notice this earlier:
1) The likelihood of asteroids forming a huge field like that seems...remote
2) How does a animal that size survive/evolve in the vaccum of space, with no oxgen or apparent food supply? (that goes for the creatures that inhabit it as well) The creature has teeth so it seems it feeds on other animals...
3) Since there is no vaccum in space, why do Han and co decide to explore the cave without putting on spacesuits first?
'You know we are supposed to be laying low not making any sound? Well why don't we explore this odd cave and kill the local wildlife! that will be quiet!'
(we see the falcon travel down the 'cave' so it's clear its exposed to space) Wouldn't the decompression kill them? and wouldn't the creature have dried out or frozen?
4) They leave the frigging ramp door open to Falcon letting all the air out and exposing the ship to space...again explosive decompression?
As I said, it's probably nitpicking (in a film about talking robots, gaint space battles and a weird mumbo jumbo mystical 'force' you can't really take the science that seriously anyway), but I feel a little stupid for not realizing this earlier...
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by malickfan Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:08 pm
halfwise wrote:It would be a horrible loss if you 'grew up'.
Forumshire isn't exactly a bastion of maturity at time anyway
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Re: Star Wars [2]
by halfwise Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:16 pm
malickfan wrote:Going off on a tangent...whilst the OT remain classic films, I couldn't help but notice something when I recently rewatched Empire
- Nitpicking geekery... :
1) The likelihood of asteroids forming a huge field like that seems...remote
2) How does a animal that size survive/evolve in the vaccum of space, with no oxgen or apparent food supply? (that goes for the creatures that inhabit it as well) The creature has teeth so it seems it feeds on other animals...
3) Since there is no vaccum in space, why do Han and co decide to explore the cave without putting on spacesuits first?
'You know we are supposed to be laying low not making any sound? Well why don't we explore this odd cave and kill the local wildlife! that will be quiet!'
(we see the falcon travel down the 'cave' so it's clear its exposed to space) Wouldn't the decompression kill them? and wouldn't the creature have dried out or frozen?
4) They leave the frigging ramp door open to Falcon letting all the air out and exposing the ship to space...again explosive decompression?
As I said, it's probably nitpicking (in a film about talking robots, gaint space battles and a weird mumbo jumbo mystical 'force' you can't really take the science that seriously anyway), but I feel a little stupid for not realizing this earlier...
If you're gonna start criticizing Star Wars on physical plausibility we may as well all go back on vacation.
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Then it gets complicated...
halfwise- Quintessence of Burrahobbitry
- Posts : 20485
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan
Re: Star Wars [2]
by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:17 pm
sometimes you bring out my stinging tail, don't know why but you do. -Figg
I would have thought that was obvious- its because I'm a stubborn, entrenched crabbit old bastard.
I say we put this one behind us and knock it up to the possibility we may have aged but not necessarily gained wisdom! (I assume I will find it one day at the bottom of a buckie bottle, no luck so far but I am determined to keep looking
)
I would have thought that was obvious- its because I'm a stubborn, entrenched crabbit old bastard.
I say we put this one behind us and knock it up to the possibility we may have aged but not necessarily gained wisdom! (I assume I will find it one day at the bottom of a buckie bottle, no luck so far but I am determined to keep looking
)_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46782
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 52
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Star Wars [2]
by David H Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:21 pm
malickfan wrote:I try and stay out of arguments here.
i try to restrict my arguments to colours
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![Star Wars [2] - Page 20 1280px-Male_kodiak_bear_face](https://2img.net/h/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Male_kodiak_bear_face.JPG/1280px-Male_kodiak_bear_face.JPG)
![Star Wars [2] - Page 20 UJpDi](https://i.imgur.com/uJpDi.jpg)
![Star Wars [2] - Page 20 Mumbea10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f11/17/86/44/91/mumbea10.jpg)
David H- Horsemaster, Fighting Bears in the Pacific Northwest
- Posts : 7194
Join date : 2011-11-18
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