Re: Star Wars [2]

by davidjoneshoward Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:40 pm

halfwise wrote:Would you guys please quit calling it 'episode VII'?? It's episode VIII. What we just got was episode VII.

my bad..... Embarassed

(i've never been one for roman numerals)

by davidjoneshoward Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:46 pm

Eldorion wrote:I'm not gonna claim that ROTJ was a great movie cause I don't think it was, but ANH is one of the most finely crafted pieces of pure entertainment ever created. It doesn't have the same strength of story and character as TESB, I agree, but it's the distillation of decades of popular cinema and pulp influences into a film of near-universal appeal. It was a revolution not just for VFX but for the whole concept of cinematic worldbuilding (the used future idea, especially). The acting and dialogue sometimes being corny is kinda beside the point IMO, though there was a good deal of impressive talent lined up. I gotta strongly disagree with you on the pacing. It takes its time early on but I think that's essential to get the emotional investment in the stakes and the main character. All of which grows and builds into one of the most perfect and cathartic cinematic climaxes of all time. It's simple, but it works so well.

^ all imo obvs

I think, actually, the was point. George Lucas wanted to recreate his favorite things growing up, and I think he knew they were corny. Either that, or he's just not a very good writer/director of actors. Shrugging

by halfwise Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:51 pm

Oh, we know he's not a good writer/director of actors, at least in the science fiction vein. He proved that in the prequels. He had better writing in American Graffiti, and kept the momentum with Star Wars; but after that he kind of lost it. He didn't write the script for Empire Strikes Back or I think we would have seen the decline earlier.

by davidjoneshoward Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:54 pm

Well, yeah, but I was questioning whether or not he was trying to be corny even in the first SW, or if he's just a corny director.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:57 pm

I agree with halfy that writing dialogue and directing actors are not Lucas' strengths, but DJH raises a good point and I think the type of works the original Star Wars was a homage to allowed it to play to Lucas' strengths while rendering his weaknesses less relevant.

by halfwise Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:14 pm

I'll have to step back and concede he was a great writer for Raiders of the Lost Ark; but after he had put all the best memes together, the rest of the series was watered down and weak. I think that's a good call Eldo: he was making a TYPE, and once he had used up that TYPE he just didn't have as much left to work with.

by davidjoneshoward Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:26 pm

http://epicstream.com/features/Why-the-Reaction-to-Star-Wars-Rogue-One-Proves-the-term-Mary-Sue-is-Meaningless

An interesting article to read and get angry about. I disagree with the writer, in that we've got a bunch of "Marty Stu's" floating about in hollywood right now, but it's only the icons like Indiana Jones and James Bond that get away with it because they're written so god damn well. The rest are simply forgotten as flat, 2 dimensional heroes, the same with a bad Mary Sue.

I think this comment sums it up nicely:

Let's argue this one. I'm going to stick to just the movies as the majority of those who watched the movie don't read Star Wars books like me.

Luke Skywalker is known to have flown T-16s on Tatooine, hence his piloting skill. Biggs even states that he's the best pilot on Tatooine. One could even argue that he inherited his father's piloting abilities through the Force (at the time in the movie, we only know that his father was a talented Jedi starfighter pilot.) Later on, when Obi-wan senses Alderaan's destruction, Luke doesn't sense it at all. The only Force "abilities" we see from Luke really is when he lets the Force guide his shot at the exhaust port and when he trains with the remote. (It was shown in the prequels that children were able to do this.) Not to mention, Luke basically loses his first duel to Vader and the Emporer handles him easily, and that's with training. Hardly a Marty Sue.

Move on to Anakin. In the movie it's stated that he was conceived through the Force. The Force! That's HUGE! That is explaination enough for most talents he manifests. He works with parts and is friendly with space traders. (I even know an 8 year old who built his own computer. I can easily see him building a droid.) He's already been shown to be a good podracer through dialogue. Again, we only really experience his Force abilities when he lets the Force guide his actions. His piloting of the starfighter is a stretch, but he doesn't even fly it out of the atmosphere himself; autopilot does. You can also see that he's more lucky than good when flying in Phantom Menace. That's plainly clear. He basically crashes into the ship's hangar after being hit and gets some lucky shots. I wouldn't really call him a Marty Sue, either.

Episode VII sets Rey up as a Mary Sue due to very little context given. Never in the movie was it stated that she had flown ships, simulators, etc., so the viewers are left wondering why she's so good at flying. Her skills as a mechanic are understandable due to her being a scavenger; I'll give you that one. Linking the fighting skills of a quarterstaff to a lightsaber is a stretch. These are two different weapons with different fighting styles. I could give you familiar, but not skilled. Besting someone who's had some training with a lightsaber is very hard to believe. Now, her use of the Force is completely ridiculous. She has shown more skill in the Force right off the bat when compared to Luke and Anakin. Force Control and Force Pull, on purpose, with no training? Then there's her beating Ben in a Force tug-o-war. This is a man who stopped a blaster bolt in midair and held it there while going about his business. A BLASTER BOLT! Something that's never actually been done before. Now, some would argue that Ben was hurt, he wasn't completely trained, etc. Someone that skilled in the Force is still extremely powerful, and he's facing someone with no training whatsoever. That just screams party foul. Then there's the turning the tables on Ben in the interrogation room. In the end, when you don't give enough context for her abilities, and then throw in her apparent mastering of the Force in an hour of screentime, that's how you earn the title of Mary Sue.

by Eldorion Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:36 pm

I agree that the term "Mary Sue" gets way overused (to borrow a topic from a concurrent thread, it's meaning has certainly drifted a lot from its original context of mocking bad fanfiction). A couple months ago I did read a really fascinating (and long) essay attempting to make sense of the term in the context of the whole Rey debate, written by a guy I know on another forum, which has influenced my thinking on the subject since then.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1161509

by halfwise Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:47 pm

Rey isn't annoying the way Wesley Crusher was. Way back at the dawn of the internet, there was a discussion group labeled - using the necessary syntax back then - as "wesley.crusher.die.die.die". It was one of the largest threads on the Star Trek discussion board.

by davidjoneshoward Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:55 pm

I think the main issue here is that Rey just isn't shown enough struggling with what she does enough, and whether it be through the lack dialogue or implications, there's not enough context given to the character. Even with "perfect" male characters, like Indy, or John McClane (I personally find McClane to be slightly boring and slightly 2dimensional), we still see them struggling to get to the end of the movie. With Rey it seems to be a race to get to that one cool fight scene with Kylo Ren.

by davidjoneshoward Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:00 am

http://www.amazon.com/William-Shakespeares-Star-Trilogy-34-inch/dp/1594747911
http://www.quirkbooks.com/sites/default/files/ShakespeareStarWars_EducatorsGuide.pdf
http://www.popmatters.com/review/star-wars-by-william-shakespeare-by-ian-doescher/

For those worked up on the corny dialogue, this might help them. It lacks the character driven monologues that stand out when I'm dragged to a Shakespeare play, but still looks like a fun read. It seems like (from what I read) it could have taken more liberties with the characters to make them seem like they're shakespearean, rather than just literally translating the dialogue Lucas wrote into a play with a few dated phrases every few lines.

At a superficial level, Doescher’s Star Wars might be a fun read for some people who like Star Wars and appreciate Shakespeare. As a poet and Shakespeare fan (and Star Wars fan) I found it more frustrating than enjoyable. For those who find Shakespeare confusing or annoying, the translation of Lucas into Shakespeare will do little to help them gain interest in 16th century theater.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HtfSuazG70
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHtbNVwNJow

by Ringdrotten Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:43 am

I read all three (bought a box set on Amazon) - They're both very funny and very well written, and I disagree that all the writer does is translate Lucas' own words into more Shakespearean language. Much of it, yes, but there are also monologues and scenes where characters "step aside" and we get to see how the writer imagines a particular character must have felt in a given situation. These are quite hilarious, especially the woes and worries of the Yeti-like monster on Hoth Laughing

In my opinion the author has given us his own version of the SW trilogy, though always with respect to the original material. I recommend them, good reads and very funny.

by davidjoneshoward Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:13 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:I disagree that all the writer does is translate Lucas' own words into more Shakespearean language. Much of it, yes, but there are also monologues and scenes where characters "step aside" and we get to see how the writer imagines a particular character must have felt in a given situation.

Yeah. I probably hadn't read it enough to say that. After listening to some of the audio book of the ESB, I'm leaning towards your sentiment, and am starting to think that reviewer didn't really know what he was talking about

by Ringdrotten Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:20 pm

Let us know what you think when you're done, you should be in for a treat Smile

by malickfan Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:25 pm

Has anyone listened to the radio adaptations of the OT, if so, how faithful/different are they in comparison to the films?

by Eldorion Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:39 pm

Never listened to them but the radio adaptations include a good deal of material from the original story treatments that didn't make it into the finished films. I imagine they'd be an interesting experience for that alone.

by malickfan Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:43 pm

Eldorion wrote:Never listened to them but the radio adaptations include a good deal of material from the original story treatments that didn't make it into the finished films. I imagine they'd be an interesting experience for that alone.

That's true (though I could do without more ewoks), I've also been meaning to read 'The Star Wars' the Graphic Novel adaptation of Lucas's original treatment at some point...

Surprised there's never been (as far as I know) an attempt for more audio drama Star Wars, I know it's a relatively unpopular format in N.America but I'd be intrigued to hear how the universe sounds on radio...

Also, I am I correct in thinking you had read Lost Stars? I've heard very good things about it...

by Eldorion Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:51 pm

"The Star Wars" is based on a much earlier draft than the audio dramas are, but it's an interesting project in its own right as well. Very different from the story in the films, though.

I did read Lost Stars and spent several posts gushing over it on here back in December. Very Happy

I thought it was fantastic; one of my favorite stories from the Star Wars universe, period. I love the ground-level look at the Galactic Civil War and all the lore tie-ins. A little contrived at times but nothing too bad IMO. The romance angle was prevalent, though not at the expense of everything else. I adored it, but I'm a sucker for that kind of thing at times. Also, it's one of very SF/F works I've read/watched in which characters actually have sex in the same way people do in the real world. Normally the author either pretends sex doesn't exist, or it's exclusively used as one of the ways to show how shitty their world is. It's by no means gratuitous, but I found the treatment of the subject to be incredibly refreshing.

So yeah, thinking about it again, I guess I still love Lost Stars. Don't let the YA label scare you away; go read it! Very Happy

by malickfan Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:02 pm

Eldorion wrote:
I did read Lost Stars and spent several posts gushing over it on here back in December. I thought it was fantastic; one of my favorite stories from the Star Wars universe, period. I love the ground-level look at the Galactic Civil War and all the lore tie-ins. A little contrived at times but nothing too bad IMO. The romance angle was prevalent, though not at the expense of everything else. I adored it, but I'm a sucker for that kind of thing at times. Also, it's one of very SF/F works I've read/watched in which characters actually have sex in the same way people do in the real world. Normally the author either pretends sex doesn't exist, or it's exclusively used as one of the ways to show how shitty their world is. It's by no means gratuitous, but I found the treatment of the subject to be incredibly refreshing.

So yeah, thinking about it again, I guess I still love Lost Stars. Don't let the YA label scare you away; go read it!

Sold I'll get round to getting hold of a copy soon Smile

by Eldorion Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:25 pm

I hope you'll share your thoughts on it once you've had a chance to read it!

by halfwise Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:01 pm

I just noticed while looking at pictures of Darth Vader, the shoes are out of place. They should look like bad-ass boots, but instead they are kind of soft, made for comfort. Tain't right.

Star Wars [2] - Page 29 Sc4-darth-vader

by Eldorion Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:04 pm

Let it never be said that fascists have no appreciation for podiatry.

by malickfan Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:05 pm

Mark Hamill is such a wonderful troll:

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/721050567250952193

THRILLING NEWS! Got the go-ahead from @rianjohnson to give #UPFS a brief glimpse of an #EP8 TRAILER! RU READY #HAMSTERS ? #StayTuned4Details

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/721412996849795072

Star Wars [2] - Page 29 CgL5S95WEAMOSev

by **Amarië** Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:17 pm

halfwise wrote:I just noticed while looking at pictures of Darth Vader, the shoes are out of place. They should look like bad-ass boots, but instead they are kind of soft, made for comfort. Tain't right.

Star Wars [2] - Page 29 21019509e68b0b463670153b1d415a2a63dce117a9cce4c34dc7c1a25d97cb63

by **Amarië** Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:24 pm

malickfan wrote:Mark Hamill is such a wonderful troll:

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/721050567250952193

THRILLING NEWS! Got the go-ahead from @rianjohnson to give #UPFS a brief glimpse of an #EP8 TRAILER! RU READY #HAMSTERS ? #StayTuned4Details

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/721412996849795072

I still got a crush on that guy. Laughing