Star Wars [2]

My biggest problem with Finn in these early scenes was his oddly characterized attachment to his First Order comrades, he's clearly upset when a comrade is killed in the assault on the village at the start of the film, yet he dosen't hesitate to kill his fellow troopers when escaping with Poe in the Tie fighter, obviously it's kill or be kill, and Finn dosen't seem very comfortable with the First Order's methods anyway, but you would have thought he'd be a bit more hesitant to kill these guys, when he has presumably spent months or years training and living with them, Finn does seem to be pretty new to the First Order, but even so you'd wonder why they didn't pick up on his doubts during training...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:What did he think he had joined up to? Traffic control? Wasnt he a bit curious why he was being trained to shoot stuff and being given full armour and weaponry? Seriously, he didnt realise what Stormtroopers did till then?

Come on Petty, the movie is very clear about this. Finn was stolen from his family as a baby and raised from infancy to be a Stormtrooper. He wasn't an idiot, he knew what the First Order was about, but he'd been conditioned his whole life not to question it. But when it was finally his turn to actually pull the trigger himself, the part of his humanity that hadn't been snuffed out asserted itself.

As I said, cute is its defining trait. Thats what you get, its loveable in the way a puppy is but compare it to the personalities we have of R2 and C3PO by the same point in the original film.

I feel that BB-8 has a similar level of personality as R2-D2.

Doesn't explain why with her skills she would stay and work all day for half a days rations.

Can't really argue with this beyond speculating. Rey's clearly stuck in a mental rut so maybe she feels she doesn't deserve anything better? That's just my own guesswork though, so I can't really offer it up as a defense of the film or even the ancillary material.

I think a fair few of the problems or supposed 'plot holes' of TFA are likely to be explained by the sequel or ancillary materials, Disney will be after as much $ as possible.

Whether that is lazy writing, or a brilliant idea from a commercial point of view is open to debate...

And I think I prefer BB8 to R2-D2 sorry.

Depending on how Ep turns out the same may hold true for Kylo Ren and Darth Vader. Vader was fairly intimidating, but I never found him a very interesting villain personally.

I do feel that the movies should be able to stand on their own, as most people will not read any of the fluff (but real talk, guys: Lost Stars was fucking beautiful). I do feel a little uncomfortable saying "let's wait for Episode VIII", but if the sequel is just another retread and/or doesn't address any of the mysteries then I don't think I'll make any excuses for it.

Eldorion wrote: if the sequel is just another retread and/or doesn't address any of the mysteries then I don't think I'll make any excuses for it.

Neither will I...though naturally I'll go and see it at least twice

Lawrence Kasdan (co writer of ESB, ROTJ and TFA) described the script for Episode VII as 'weird' and very different to anything he or Abrams would have done, that could just be hyperbole, but weird+star wars sounds like a good mix i.m.o (I'm not overly familiar with Rian Johnson's work, but I really liked Lopper). Abrams also commented the script for Ep 8 was so good he wished he was directing it, which again could be hyperbole or praise.

TFA was always destined to be a 'safe' film by Disney to test the waters and reboot the series for a new generation, now they've reestablished the brand we'll have to wait and see if they move forward in a new direction, or just play it safe, either way I think moving forward, Disney's SW will probably be more blockbuster orientated than the films which went before.

I agree that TFA was intended as a reset button moment for the franchise after the prequels, but I also read a really interesting piece by Tony Zhou (the guy who does Ever Frame a Painting on YouTube) arguing that the movie was trying to make up for ROTJ moreso than for the prequels. I wasn't as negative about the film as he was but I found it an interesting perspective.

https://medium.com/@tonyszhou/the-force-awakens-is-a-deeply-broken-film-b-c-one-character-shouldn-t-be-there-spoilers-b31e33a44ee6#.k32g3ve9k

Eldo- Finn being raised to be a Stormtrooper only makes it worse- don't they do psychological testing?- didn't any of his trooper buddies notice he wasn't that keen? And oddly enough when he doers jump sides he suddenly has no qualms about murdering all his old mates he has grown up with.

I think the new droid is cuter but I dont see how in terms of personality its comparable to R2- who displayed a far greater range by this point in the original films- we had seem R2 be brave, stubborn, rude, afraid, curious, loyal, tenacious, spontaneous and dedicated all by the time he gets to Obi. Thats a far greater range of personality than the new droid displays in this entire film, it just does cute.

Eldorion wrote:I agree that TFA was intended as a reset button moment for the franchise after the prequels, but I also read a really interesting piece by Tony Zhou (the guy who does Ever Frame a Painting on YouTube) arguing that the movie was trying to make up for ROTJ moreso than for the prequels.  I wasn't as negative about the film as he was but I found it an interesting perspective.

https://medium.com/@tonyszhou/the-force-awakens-is-a-deeply-broken-film-b-c-one-character-shouldn-t-be-there-spoilers-b31e33a44ee6#.k32g3ve9k

Hmm...I get where he is coming from, Han

Spoiler:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Eldo- Finn being raised to be a Stormtrooper only makes it worse- don't they do psychological testing?- didn't any of his trooper buddies notice he wasn't that keen? And oddly enough when he doers jump sides he suddenly has no qualms about murdering all his old mates he has grown up with.

I don't think the film gives enough information to say how sudden or complete Finn's moral awakening was.  I will say that I'm not really a big fan of the whole Stormtroopers being raised from birth thing.  In the OT there was no reason to think they weren't just regular guys in uniforms, and it's weird that the First Order has the infrastructure to run this kind of operation when they seem to be a neo-Nazi cult operating on the fringes of the Galaxy (though obviously the Starkiller Base is the more prominent example of this problem).

I think the new droid is cuter but I dont see how in terms of personality its comparable to R2- who displayed a far greater range by this point in the original films- we had seem R2 be brave, stubborn, rude, afraid, curious, loyal, tenacious, spontaneous and dedicated all by the time he gets to Obi. Thats a far greater range of personality than the new droid displays in this entire film, it just does cute.

I disagree that BB-8 only conveyed cuteness. We get a sense of his loyalty and dedication to his mission, of his spontaneity and curiosity when he meets Rey and Finn, his surprise at learning Finn wasn't with the Rebellion but also his ability to improvise by going along with him. We see him get sad at R2 being non-responsive, happy when he reunites with Poe, etc.

malickfan wrote:Hmm...I get where he is coming from, Han

Spoiler:

Yeah, I think Han's death was done really well in TFA. I get what Harrison Ford and others mean when they say they think Han should have died in TESB or ROTJ, but that would have required ROTJ to be a different sort of movie from what we got. So I think it could've worked, but you couldn't just add a death scene for Han and call it a day.

malickfan wrote:My biggest problem with Finn in these early scenes was his oddly characterized attachment to his First Order comrades, he's clearly upset when a comrade is killed in the assault on the village at the start of the film, yet he dosen't hesitate to kill his fellow troopers when escaping with Poe in the Tie fighter, obviously it's kill or be kill, and Finn dosen't seem very comfortable with the First Order's methods anyway, but you would have thought he'd be a bit more hesitant to kill these guys, when he has presumably spent months or years training and living with them, Finn does seem to be pretty new to the First Order, but even so you'd wonder why they didn't pick up on his doubts during training...

maybe that's why the Force isn't very strong in him in this story. He is still shedding his past and hasn't quite got there yet. He means well but still has wobbles.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Eldo- Finn being raised to be a Stormtrooper only makes it worse- don't they do psychological testing?- didn't any of his trooper buddies notice he wasn't that keen? And oddly enough when he doers jump sides he suddenly has no qualms about murdering all his old mates he has grown up with.

I think the new droid is cuter but I dont see how in terms of personality its comparable to R2- who displayed a far greater range by this point in the original films- we had seem R2 be brave, stubborn, rude, afraid, curious, loyal, tenacious, spontaneous and dedicated all by the time he gets to Obi. Thats a far greater range of personality than the new droid displays in this entire film, it just does cute.

BB8 does, curious, afraid, suspicious, sad, happy, excited, thumbs up, loyal and cute! cute! cute!

Yeah, BB-8's thumbs up was not only funny but a great example of the amount of emotion they fit into that little guy, although the movement of his head ultimately said the most.

Here's a pretty incredible face-off between an Empire Strikes Back trailer remade in the modern fashion, and one of the original trailers.  It's pretty amazing how bad they were back then; I don't remember them being that bad but can't argue with the evidence.

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Watch-Modern-Trailer-Empire-Strikes-Back-Try-Freak-Out-103417.html

Yeah, it's really weird to watch the original film's trailer too.  With that one they probably didn't have much of an idea how to sell the film but it still highlights all the changes since then.

I also doubt they'd have included the Luke/Leia kiss in the trailer if they'd known how things would play out between them in ROTJ.

Regards BB-8 perhaps 'character' is a better word to describe what it lacks than personality.

You've got every right to that opinion, but I'm still not going to agree with you!

Just rewatched Return of the Jedi. It actually held up much better than I remembered. The Ewoks didn't piss me off this time. I must be getting old and yearning to surround myself with little furry things.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The mission to kill Max von Sydow was Finn's first combat mission as a Stormtrooper.- Edlo

What did he think he had joined up to? Traffic control? Wasnt he a bit curious why he was being trained to shoot stuff and being given full armour and weaponry? Seriously, he didnt realise what Stormtroopers did till then?

Yeah because that's what its like when someone first goes to war. Clearly the training fully prepares you for when people start dying around you... 

I also find it rather unfair that one should criticize a movie's opening scene for not letting us get to know the characters involved in that opening scene. I mean, the movie can't introduce a character fully-developed!

Regarding Petty's complaint about TFA not filling in Rey's backstory at the very beginning, I'm reminded of the argument that the intro to LotR was unnecessary. Indeed that it actually hurt the narrative by revealing the Ring's backstory too early, not letting its story reveal itself slowly at the appropriate times during the course of the 3 movies (as JRRT does in the books). How is this different?

As for Rey choosing to scavenge and work black-market rather than take a "real job", it made perfect sense to me.  I've known many people who have chosen to work under-the-table when there might have been a more profitable "real job", especially when they'd rather not create a paper trail (for whatever reason.... )

halfwise wrote:Just rewatched Return of the Jedi.  It actually held up much better than I remembered.  The Ewoks didn't piss me off this time.  I must be getting old and yearning to surround myself with little furry things.

Hey I was also watching ROTJ yesterday. Didn't finish it though, as I fell asleep!   Though I got pretty far, Luke was confronting the Emperor. The Ewoks never pissed me off, maybe because I grew up with it. Younger Billy Dee Williams flying the Falcon; damn, now there's a Star Wars movie I would love to see.

I think at the time, with the only foreseeable plan being to go back and do a prequel trilogy, that having Han survive was the right thing to do. That was the end of Star Wars and it deserved a happy ending.

Though if I ever had to surround myself with furry things...

I mean, the movie can't introduce a character fully-developed!- Forest

No but you can do better than 'badly sketched out' which is what we get here.

Compare to luke again- we get everything we need to know about him in a few short scenes- we get his hopes, dreams and fears at the dinner table, we get his job, his lifestyle- we know why he is there, we know he wants away, we know most of his friends have already gone- all within the first few scenes of meeting him.

As to the Stormtrooper thing- trained from infancy to be one. I am guessing if you joined the SS and then got told to go shoot some Jews you would not be suddenly horrified and shocked "You kill Jews?! I had no idea! I quit!"

'How is this different?'- Dave

In almost every conceivable way- the intro of LotR's is an unnecessary info dump not character establishing. I am not talking about an info dump here I am talking about giving characters some characteristics that are properly set up and explained- not necessarily even in words- the original film is a master of visual storytelling- so much of characters are set up with visuals and sound- think of Luke staring off into the sunsets of Tattoine- there is no dialogue, its not needed to capture the characters feelings of the moment.


'I've known many people who have chosen to work under-the-table when there might have been a more profitable "real job", especially when they'd rather not create a paper trail '

I said in my review there was nothing wrong with the set up- only her character doesn't fit it. She is way to skilled and what we see her do looks tough and dangerous- yet she does it for less than a days food- which long term would not possibly work as she would be expending more energy to get the food than she is taking in. And why doesn't she take her scrap and sell elsewhere?- rather than to that 1 fat guy who gives her bugger all for it?- does she have to sell to him, is he the only dealer on the whole planet- who knows? the film doesn't bother telling us why she does this. She just does because.

The film deliberately draws its parallels with the original SW and they do so with Rey and Luke- same setting basically, both supposed to be no one in particular- him a farmer her a lowly scavenger, they both encounter a droid with secret plans essential for the good guys, they both go to a town end up in the Faklcon and meet Han and Chewie ect but when you compare how the characters are presented, how they are developed and how the audience is informed the new one is paper thin (not enough to cover the cracks in fact) in comparison, hasty, and under developed. Things seem to be there for mechanical plot reasons alone, the characters and stroy never have an organic evolving feel to them- more like they had a list of bulletin points to hit and how they get from one to the other is less important than the points being there. And worse the points they are trying to hit belong to another film with different characters- so they are squeezing a square peg in a round hole.

wrong.

I agree with halfy about the lack of innovation and interesting world building, it was very spare and cut down to the bone, but they concentrated on putting the heart back into the story which Lucas had squandered, and I think they succeeded in introducing 3 new characters that we can learn to love maybe not as much as the originals but certainly more than the last 3 modern movies. Quibbling about Rey's skills is totally besides the point of her being in the story. its perfectly clear why she was hanging round in a dead end job as she was as much conditioned from childhood as Fin, she didn't know anything else, and she was waiting for her family to return, good enough reason to stay in my opinion.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

'How is this different?'- Dave

In almost every conceivable way- the intro of LotR's is an unnecessary info dump not character establishing. I am not talking about an info dump here I am talking about giving characters some characteristics that are properly set up and explained- not necessarily even in words- the original film is a master of visual storytelling- so much of characters are set up with visuals and sound- think of Luke staring off into the sunsets of Tattoine- there is no dialogue, its not needed to capture the characters feelings of the moment.

Personally, I've never liked the intro to Tattoine much, but that's mostly because the farm isn't in any way workable, Luke is anything but a farm kid, and the old trope of " farmboy who wants to get away and see the world but his held by his love of his family" is pretty crudely handled here. (Kill off family with one quick barbeque shot, then Bang he's free to go off on grand adventures and never look back )
There's also an argument that with the first film there was more need for setting the scene in a universe that nobody had ever heard of before. Now 38 years later, I doubt if there are many viewers who don't have some understanding of the basic SW universe.

'I've known many people who have chosen to work under-the-table when there might have been a more profitable "real job", especially when they'd rather not create a paper trail '

I said in my review there was nothing wrong with the set up- only her character doesn't fit it. She is way to skilled and what we see her do looks tough and dangerous- yet she does it for less than a days food- which long term would not possibly work as she would be expending more energy to get the food than she is taking in. And why doesn't she take her scrap and sell elsewhere?- rather than to that 1 fat guy who gives her bugger all for it?- does she have to sell to him, is he the only dealer on the whole planet- who knows? the film doesn't bother telling us why she does this. She just does because.

From a plot perspective, Rey needs to get free of a dead-end job just like Luke. Neither movie would be nearly as popular if we'd followed Luke as he decided to stay on Tattoine and make a go of Uncle Owen's farm, or if we'd followed Rey as she decides she can't afford to leave her job working in a droid tech support office by day and as an exotic dancer in the cantina by night.

but when you compare how the characters are presented, how they are developed and how the audience is informed the new one is paper thin (not enough to cover the cracks in fact) in comparison, hasty, and under developed. Things seem to be there for mechanical plot reasons alone, the characters and stroy never have an organic evolving feel to them-

For me they're both pretty comparable, and that ain't entirely bad.