The Death Of Saruman...

I also think you read more crabbit into the book than is actually there. He is a bit gruffer in the book, but McKellan wasn't too far off.

So sad, his Children of Hurin is fantastic as well. I might listen to that again in tribute to such a great actor.

Hey! Get back on off-topic!

(I didn't know Lee did a recording of Children of Hurin. That would be worth a listen)

I also think you read more crabbit into the book than is actually there. He is a bit gruffer in the book, but McKellan wasn't too far off.- Halfwise

I don't think I do, I think its in the text and in how others respond to him.

"Quick to anger, quick to laugh" is what Frodo says of him, would you honestly ever describe Mckellans Gandalf as 'quick to anger'?

youre on a hiding to nowhere with the crabbit thing.

I dont think so, I think its strongly supported in the text. And noticeably absent from the character in the films.
Its why overall I favour Sir Michael Horden's Gandalf over Sir Ian's, Hordens is more crabbit, more quick to anger, more like he is in the book.

you make him seem one note crabbiteer. Mckellen had a lot of nuance to his performance.

I am not saying he didnt- but one of those nuances was not the crabbit of book Gandalf- which is deliberately underplayed in the films- just as it was a deliberate choice not to make McKellan play Gandalf with any sort of hunching or hobbling, even though he is described in the book as having 'a back bent beneath his load' and that he genuinely leans on and uses his staff as a walking aid in the book but not in the film where he clearly does not use it as a prop for age.
In that regard Bakshi's Gandalf is closer to the book physically than PJ's.

Bakshi's Gandalf had a totally inchoate personality - didn't seem real at all. Walks like an old man, doesn't talk like one. Don't bring that mess in here.

McKellan gave a performance which might not have been exactly like the books, but was fairly close and felt right.

I was talking about how he was physically represented in Bakshi.

Why settle for fairly close? One of the aspects of Gandalf I have always enjoyed (and related to) the most is his ability to snap in a moment. It gives him a bit of an edge that stops him from being just a twinkly kindly old man, it gives a glimpse of the more powerful being underneath who gets frustrated and snappy with folk, especially 'fools'.
Horden's performance shows it can be done very well indeed.

Why take away from the overall personality of the book and simplify it down?
Its just part of PJ's inability or unwillingness to reflect shades of grey. Things are either good or bad in his ME. Gandalf included. All the 'good' guys have any rough edges smoothed off them. 'Bad' guys have their badness exaggerated and any redeeming factors removed (see Denethor)

Inchoate:
adjective
just begun and so not fully formed or developed; rudimentary.
"a still inchoate democracy"

Good word Halfy!


Anyway, unavoidably sorrowful news with the passing of Sir Christopher Lee.

I learned of the news through a banal and ridiculous source: from the spam-ads at the side of a Rotten Tomatoes webpage. :/

The merits of his life have already been well-expounded in this thread, but I'd just like to add that I thought he was really excellent in the Lord of the Rings films and quite good at his role in The Wicker Man, and I'm glad to have been a fellow admirer of Tolkien with such an interesting and iconic figure.



As regards the conversation about Gandalf's characterization by Ian McKellen I think we have to agree that the film version is more cheery and uplifting. It's a fairly dark story at times and in the movies several lines are given to Gandalf that help to further demonstrate the role he plays in shoring up the defenses of Men and inspiring hope.
Obviously this is far more prevalent once he becomes Gandalf the White and begins to lose his nuances and unfortunately becomes more of a pusher of exposition in some scenes, but we see this done in an admirable and memorable way at the end of the FotR. Frodo remembers the words Gandalf spoke to him in Moria, and we see the far-reaching effect of Gandalf's wisdom influencing events even after his death.

So yes, I do agree that book-Gandalf is much crabbier than his film-counterpart. However, he also has some memorable lines like the funny (and I paraphrase (never mind, I went and looked it up))

“Fool of a Took!" he growled. "This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance.”

This is replaced in the film by:

"Fool of a Took! Throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity!"

So you see, the book version has this delightful crabbit that is, slightly, mellowed by Gandalf's love for hobbits. Perhaps I am reading too much into this, but I think that only someone who knows how silly hobbits can be, but also loves them, would say something like that. Obviously Gandalf does know that the same hobbit he is speaking to was with Frodo on his "walking-party" through the Shire that turned into a horrible flight through the wilds and has faced the horror of the Nazgul.
Gandalf is reproaching Pippin (as any commander would reproach an underling that has just done something exceedingly foolish) but from the context of the story we know that it was Gandalf himself who argued in faovur of Pippin accompanying Frodo on this journey, and that he actually does think well-enough of Frodo's less-capable kin, despite his gruff manner of speaking.

I think Petty sometimes, in his defense of the crabbit-meister Gandalf of his imaginings, misses the soft spot that Gandalf has underlying his crabby mannerisms in the books. Really the, as Eldo so aptly put it, "asshole-ish" way that Gandalf behaves towards Pippin in the first and second movies is rather spiteful and far more crabby than book-Gandalf.

That is only one example, but I think a good one in that it serves to showcase a part of Gandalf that Jackson and Co. attempted to keep in part: the crabbity Gandalf. They did this poorly, I think, in that we don't see until the third film that Gandalf actually does care about Pippin and Merry, and doesn't just think that they are two idiots that he has to tote from place to place and who, when he heard of their requests to join Frodo on his quest at the Council of Elrond, simply half-smilingly shook his head at Elrond as if to say, "erm... well that's a bad idea." (Instead of arguing for their inclusion! If Elrond in the books had his way it would have been two members of his house accompanying the hobbits.)

Grouped with the "rid us of your stupidity!" attitude that the Grey Wizard holds towards Pipping for so long, I think we can also agree that film-Gandalf's mannerisms are not simply cheery-grandfather type, but flips over to rudely dickish-to-Pippin at times.

Anyway, here's to Christopher Lee. May the Gift of Men bring him peace.

I think Petty sometimes, in his defense of the crabbit-meister Gandalf of his imaginings, misses the soft spot that Gandalf has underlying his crabby mannerisms in the books.- Forest

I cant agree with you there Forest.
The sort of crabbit I hear most of the time in everyday life is that between family and friends. And its nearly (as my own crabbit here hopefully mainly is) always tinged with humour.
Its precisely what you highlight- Gandalfs crabbit and frustration, underlying his basic love of hobbits (and living things in general)- which is so recognisable to me, and so missing for me in the films.

The books are full of Gandalfs crabbit explosions being tinged with humour, one of my own favourites is when he returns to the Shire and Frodo, mistakenly believing that its a Sackville Baggins at the door ignores him, only to have a crabbit Gandalf at the window demanding he open the door or have it blown right down his tunnel. Thats great crabbit with humour.

That is a delightful scene from the book! I believe, movie-wise, its replacement was when Gandalf is stalking through Bag End and grabs at Frodo from out of the dark.

By the by, I see your point about how you enjoy the basic love and appreciation of hobbits that Gandalf possesses under his crabbit (although the crabbit itself is the most enjoyable part of that for you), but I find it frustrating when your responses begin with a strong statement of counter-point. It may be exactly how you feel about the situation, but it reminds me of the eternal Figgsy-Petty Who debate.

You said: "One of the aspects of Gandalf I have always enjoyed (and related to) the most is his ability to snap in a moment. It gives him a bit of an edge that stops him from being just a twinkly kindly old man, it gives a glimpse of the more powerful being underneath who gets frustrated and snappy with folk, especially 'fools'."

There is no mention of the love of hobbits here, and I think my response about your focus on the crabbity-crabbit was a fair point, at least within the context of this recent discussion. I think it's like playing chess with a friend, Petty. Sure, you can admire how good he is at strategy from a distance, but lose against him every day and you will soon move on to card games with his younger brother instead.
Just toss me a bone now and then, por favor.

Petty never tosses bones, hence the never-ending Who debates. You would have more luck getting him to toss a dwarf.

How can one toss oneself??

Hmm...according to PJ all dwarves are Scottish, though it's unclear if you can invert the reasoning.

I may be mistaken in this, but I've always seen Petty represented as short, stout, and round-a-bout in, for example, Norc's sketches. If short, chunky and Scottish doesn't make you a dwarf than Peter Jackson must be misrepresenting them to the world!

There is no mention of the love of hobbits here- Forest

Thats true, but there is a simple reason for that, for me one is implicit in the other. Crabbit and a streak of mischievous humour go together.
So when I talk of book Gandalf being crabbit I am by definition talking about the humour that is an intrinsic part of how he displays his crabbit.
I never mentioned it as a separate thing in itself as it never occurred to me consider the humour of his crabbit a separate thing from the crabbit.

'Just toss me a bone now and then, por favor.'

And be neither crabbit nor petty?!!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:There is no mention of the love of hobbits here- Forest

Thats true, but there is a simple reason for that, for me one is implicit in the other. Crabbit and a streak of mischievous humour go together.
So when I talk of book Gandalf being crabbit I am by definition talking about the humour that is an intrinsic part of how he displays his crabbit.
I never mentioned it as a separate thing in itself as it never occurred to me consider the humour of his crabbit a separate thing from the crabbit.

'Just toss me a bone now and then, por favor.'

And be neither crabbit nor petty?!!

Well you didn't mention the word crabbit either in that post, while we're on the subject. Mostly just snapping out at other people.

It doesn't need mentioned in the post, it was the subject of the conversation.

And I am sorry you feel I am snapping out at people, I am merely responding to others views I have a difference with with my own view, or adding further information to my previous stated views on this.

I think he means Gandalf was portrayed as snapping out at people.

Ah then I misread the post.
Though Gandalf's snapping is his crabbit, he has a classic crabbits short time span between someone saying/doing something stupid, and pointing out to them they have said/done something stupid in an angry outburst (but often tinged with underlying humour as its not coming form a place of actual anger, its crabbit ).

And I stand by my original assertion- that in PJ's version Sir Ian doesn't give us enough of that crabbit in his Gandalf- he is too friendly and nice. And so neither as interesting or as much fun.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:It doesn't need mentioned in the post, it was the subject of the conversation.

And I am sorry you feel I am snapping out at people, I am merely responding to others views I have a difference with with my own view, or adding further information to my previous stated views on this.

Oh Petty, I was referencing your words "snapping out at people" being one of the things you liked about Gandalf as it kept him from being too twinkly-eyed.

Yes I misunderstood your post Forest! Well it was very late and I was very drunk

I think you are looking at Gandalf through a buckie haze where he shouts at buildings for having stupid windows. He just isn't that crabbit in the book. Otherwise he would seem a bit of a crochety old dude always moaning at the kids. he does have his moments with Merry and Pippin in the books, but generally he is even tempered until angered as with Grima.