The Death Of Saruman...

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Post by feanor 1999 Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:45 pm

Ayup All...

Just dropping in to announce (if you didnt already know and I couldn't find another thread) the real death of Saruman... Christopher Lee. I have to say Im shocked and saddened a little more, it coming at the same time as another great British Actor, Ron Moody. who certainly could have bought more much needed gravitas to the PJ Project... Chrissy Lee, kept me, like so many of us kids in the seventies, awake with fear at the prospect of Vampires coming into our rooms. Manys the time I've quaked with fear after watching a bit of Late night Hammer House of Horror. Having said that it didnt define him as an actor and he made so many other good films and popped up in others. One of the firmanent of real Film stars.

Goodnight Chrissy Lee, Don't let the Undead bite !

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Post by Eldorion Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:58 pm

Just heard about this. Christopher Lee lived as full and amazing life as anyone could expect. He will certainly be missed. It's incredible how active he remained up to and including his last years, not just with acting, but stuff like his heavy metal career too.

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Post by Tinuviel Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:07 pm

I remember when he said in an interview that he wondered if he'd even live to see the his parts in the Hobbit films.

Well he did, but I'm not so sure how happy he is about it...

Nonetheless Rest in Peace Sir Christopher. Hopefully he's up there having tea with the Professor.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:11 pm

And bad mouthing PJ Twisted Evil (Except Lee was too much a gentleman)

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Post by malickfan Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:52 pm

A fantastic Character Actor, part time rock singer, retired special forces operative, and a old fashioned gentleman with a very fascinating life, Lee certainly packed alot it his his life, RIP Sad

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Post by Radaghast Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:37 pm

RIP.

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Post by RA Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:37 am

This makes me really sad that he's actually gone.

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Post by azriel Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:00 am

Hello RA Wave
Just like in RL you meet friends & relatives at bad times Crying or Very sad

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Post by feanor 1999 Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:08 am

Ayup Eldo...

That Metal outburst is so so weird and unsettling... Good luck to CL though. I'm sure it'll sell and sell !

One thing I'd wished he'd disclosed, was 'How a man who's killed by stealth dies' I remember PJ mused this in front of him and he said 'You don't want to know and I can't tell you under the official secrets act'... Now THAT I wanted to know.

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Post by Mrs Figg Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:19 am

god bless Sad
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Post by malickfan Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:05 pm

Someone posted this on Reddit, an interesting interview with Christopher Lee back in 1998, during which he finds out about the LOTR films for the first time, I can just picture him running off to phone his agent straight afterwards...

http://www.gamesradar.com/sfx-issue-45/

Not sure if he would have worked as Gandalf, he was too old by the time the films rolled around anyway, although he certainly has the charisma and powerful voice to pull it off, his typecasting as a villain would probably work against him, and Mckellen seems to have had a broader experience in straight drama rather than genre films.

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Post by Eldorion Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:42 pm

It’s about now that I mention Peter Jackson’s recently confirmed plans for a tripartite cinematic version of Tolkien’s saga, presuming the actor already knows about it. He doesn’t. Lee’s dumbstruck.

“A film? Of The Lord Of The Rings ? And they’re going to do the whole thing? I mean, I’ve always thought it would make a superb film, but when you start thinking about it it’s such a colossal canvas, with all these tremendous battles apart from anything else. The one between the Riders Of Rohan and the Orcs at Helm’s Deep, I mean, God, that’s a film by itself, and then outside Mordor when Sam and Frodo are travelling with Gollum... How are you going to get somebody to play Gollum?” Lee makes that distinctive swallowed gulp at the back of his throat…

“I mean, you’ve got the four hobbits, five if you include Bilbo, and then there’s the story back in the Shire, when Sharkey has taken over, so you’ve five or more hobbits, three wizards – the White, the Grey and the Brown... Were there any others?” The Mastermind chair might be terrifying, but it’s got nothing on Christopher Lee’s stare. Fortunately, the actor provides his own answers. “No, there were five wizards who are mentioned in one of The Unfinished Tales , but you end up with Radagast The Brown, Gandalf The Grey and Saruman The White, the three Istari. Now they can be played by actors, and the Orcs are just make-up, but the Ents... How are they going to do the assault on Orthanc? I would think that to tell the whole story would cost $200-300 million. Are they going to get that sort of money?”

Amazing. Laughing I love you Great find, Malick!

I was aware of Lee meeting Tolkien and the (rumor? confirmed fact?) that Tolkien liked the idea of Lee as Gandalf. I think Lee would have captured a side of Gandalf that was downplayed in McKellen's portrayal, but on the other hand, I think they were both superb in the roles they ended up in. Making Saruman more prominent was one change that I thought worked extremely well in the films, and much of that was down to Lee.

Also, I was Googling for information about Lee and Tolkien and stumbled across this gem on the LOTR Wikia, which I had forgotten about entirely. Razz

During the filming of his death scene in The Return of the King, Peter Jackson began to coach him how to react when Saruman is stabbed in the back by Grima (Brad Dourif), but Lee interrupted him, reminding him that Lee actually had heard the sound a man makes when he is stabbed in the back.
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Post by malickfan Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:02 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Amazing. Laughing I love you Great find, Malick!

Don't thank me, thank Reddit (never thought I'd say that)

I was aware of Lee meeting Tolkien and the (rumor? confirmed fact?) that Tolkien liked the idea of Lee as Gandalf

I think the story was Lee briefly met him in a country pub in the late 60's, Lee mentioned he was a fan of Tolkiens the two had a quick conversation and that was it... IIRC Tolkein didn't even own a radio at this stage, he had limited sympathies for cinema so I'm not sure if he would approve a Horror actor in the role  .  

I think Lee would have captured a side of Gandalf that was downplayed in McKellen's portrayal

That is probably true, I think he would have captured Gandalf's unpredictability and sheer power better, even at 90 Lee was one of the most striking character actors around, Mckellen made Gandalf human, but there Lee had a special screen presence...


but on the other hand, I think they were both superb in the roles they ended up in

Certainly, I can still picture 'my' Gandalf but the voice of Saruman will always be Lee's.

 Making Saruman more prominent was one change that I thought worked extremely well in the films, and much of that was down to Lee[/b]

Agreed, though I still think his death sequence is a bit of a mess...*

Also, I was Googling for information about Lee and Tolkien and stumbled across this gem on the LOTR Wikia, which I had forgotten about entirely. Razz
During the filming of his death scene in The Return of the King, Peter Jackson began to coach him how to react when Saruman is stabbed in the back by Grima (Brad Dourif), but Lee interrupted him, reminding him that Lee actually had heard the sound a man makes when he is stabbed in the back.

I'm both curious to know more and a little scared:shock: , Lee fought with the Special Forces in WW2 (he also volunteered aged 17 for the Finnish-Soviet Winter War of 1939 though he didn't see combat) and was likely bound by the Official Secrets act for decades, It certainly seems in keeping with his character that he would take his service record to the grave with him. My late Grandfather was 17 when WW2 broke out, and probably served for the entire duration, I kinda regret never asking him more about his experiences but I'm not sure it was my right to do so (he made some vague references to lots of 'big boats' so I presume he landed on D-Day or Anzio) much like Lee he was a quiet reserved gentleman, it's a shame so many of them are leaving us, Lee left behind quiet a legacy...

His audiobook of The Children of Hurin was really good, in some ways its a shame he never did the others. Imagine Smaug with his voice...

*Apparently Lee thought so too, from Ian McKellen's Facebook page:

When I arrived in New Zealand to start filming as Gandalf, in the first week of the 21st Century, Peter Jackson held a dinner for some of the cast. I was happily next to Christopher Lee who I had known of throughout my actor-admiring life. He'd been cast as the white wizard Saruman but his opening line to me was: "I've always thought I should play Gandalf. I read 'Lord of the Rings' every year - sometimes twice." He then treated me to a snatch of the black speech of Mordor and I felt inadequate. Not that that was Chris's intention: he was 78 and well practised in the art of gentlemanly rectitude. The epitome of "tall, dark and handsome" kept any inner demons for his acting Dracula, Frankenstein's monster and, once, as Sherlock Holmes. It's what made his Saruman so effective. With his long beard and white robes, he had the air of a stern yet benign Pope that belied his ambition to rule Middle-earth, with cruelty and spite. Between our facing-off on the set, he could easily be persuaded to reminisce. After all there were over 200 films on his CV and a couple of singing albums. His earliest intention was to be an opera bass., Touchingly he was a little nervous at the outset. "Peter made me do my first speech 10 times!!" I told him not to worry as the previous day I'd had to repeat a scene 27 times. His dark eyes widened and glinted but he didn't complain again. Peter was tickled to have his Hammer Horror hero as the villain and devised a spectacular death to acknowledge his vampiric past - falling onto a spike which pierced his dastardly heart. Chris didn't much approve and I think the episode can only be seen in the extended Director's Cut. An odd pity that he didn't work in the theatre, nor direct a film, like his idol Laurence Olivier who had Chris as a spear-carrier in his film of 'Hamlet.' But he was justly proud of the span and success of his career in movies and when knighted must, like all of us, have been pleased to share a title with Sir Larry. The last time Saruman and Gandalf filmed together was 'round a table in Rivendell but while Galadriel, Elrond and I were in the Wellington studio, Sir Christopher's interjections were filmed in London some months later. You can't tell. In movies, all is not as it seems. Yet when he joined the "Star Wars" cast he said he did all his own stunts without benefit of a stand-in. That certainly wasn't true of his gravity-defying fight with Gandalf. I suspect he just wanted to declare he was in old age fit for purpose. He needn't have worried. His acting prowess never declined. -- Ian McKellen, June 2015

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:06 pm

think Lee would have captured a side of Gandalf that was downplayed in McKellen's portrayal- Eldo

Downplayed? Almost utterly absent you mean Mad

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Post by Eldorion Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:32 pm

Well I mean he was an asshole to Pippin until halfway through ROTK so there are certainly visible traces of it in the films. He showed his crabbit side with Sam in FOTR too.
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Post by RA Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:48 am

azriel wrote:Hello RA  Wave
Just like in RL you meet friends & relatives at bad times Crying or Very sad

Yeah it would seem that way. I guess I sort of knew that he wouldn't be around forever and he was getting up there, but it still makes me sad that he's gone. It makes me think about Christopher Tolkien and other people who I think are great men that are old but still with us. Time moves ever forward...

I'm being too much of a downer right now

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Post by bungobaggins Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:04 am

:hug:

ELE! I love you

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Post by Mrs Figg Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:05 pm

Eldorion wrote:Well I mean he was an asshole to Pippin until halfway through ROTK so there are certainly visible traces of it in the films.  He showed his crabbit side with Sam in FOTR too.

Agreed and I think they made the right choice of actor for Gandalf and Saruman. Gandalf hid a lot of his power, whereas Saruman was more lordly, they both were perfect casting its so amazing we got them at the right age to play the characters. Very Happy
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Post by azriel Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:06 pm

We do Bungo, we do Thumbs Up Nod Very Happy

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Post by azriel Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:07 pm

Agreed with Figgy, its almost as tho it was meant to be ?

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:09 pm

Well I mean he was an asshole to Pippin until halfway through ROTK so there are certainly visible traces of it in the films. He showed his crabbit side with Sam in FOTR too.- Eldo

In nine hours of film its nothing in comparison to how often in the book he is snappy, short tempered, irritable and generally good old fashioned crabbit.
I think its a shame an actor of McKellans talent only got to really play the twinkly eyed everyones favourite uncle sort of Gandalf, and not one with a bit more fire in him at times.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:15 pm

you seem to have conveniently forgotten the whole time Gandalf the White was onscreen.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:20 pm

He's not crabbit. He is just boring the way they portray him. He a bit more brisk and focused but thats about it. Theres no crabbit contest with Denethor over whose the bigger steward and of what for example, he barely snaps at anyone infact compared to in the book.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:27 pm

I disagree. You overstate the crabbit aspect of his character.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:33 pm

And i disagree with that! They seriously underplay his crabbit side in the films to make him friendlier and safer.

Compare his film introduction to book- in the film he jokes about being crabbit with Frodo and being late, then sets off fireworks for the amusement of following hobbits.
In the books he is genuinely crabbit, and forbids anyone any fireworks, including Frodo, whom Gandalf sets to watch over the cart for him just to make sure no hobbit children try to nick any. Thats classic tight arsed crabbit behaviour. Nod

The film version is twinklyeyed cheery, the book version is not.

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