Tolkien in General

Trump = Christ

Or maybe the anti jesu more likely

They have a lot in common- they are both a threat to established authority and how things are done, they both attract large crowds of thousands from all around whenever they speak, and they both think they can walk on water.

Petty my friend, if I can presume to call you that, I am not a christian but I assume you are in jest when you compare the donald with jesus. Perhaps I misread the spirit of your words.

Undoubtedly some parallels could be drawn between almost any two people but I think you are being far to generous to trump. He would be a scary president.

Again I'm not a christian and I do not wish to appear like I defend that faith which I personally believe to be the biggest criminals against mankind in history.

Hope I don't offend you or anyone else with my words...
Peace to all

Now to ask the question I came to ask you lore masters.

In a question at quizup in the silmarillion game they ask... where is Rhun... their answer to the east of middle earth.

Rhun is not considered M.E.?

I thought of it as the far east of the partial map of M.E. but a part of it.

Am I in error?

I thank you scholars of lore in advance for your opinions and help.

The Donald bless us each and everyone =)

Actually Music, it looks like your and Petty's views are in alignment.

I'm no lore master, I would think the phrase could be read "to the eastern part of Middle Earth".

I agree halfwise that Rhun would be considered as you say. Or perhaps the eastern part of known M.E.

I don't wish to appear ignorant of the lore that I have read and enjoyed for fourty years... I just don't want to call them on their wording before I get others to support my understanding of it.

I always believed the whole continent at the least to be considered M.E. not just the part shown on the map in LotR.

And I have no memory of Rhun ever being mentioned in the Sil... am I wrong about that?

I don't know if any in this forum have ever played the QuizUp app Tolkien games. If not you might enjoy them. Several different Tolkien games there.

Ones for the jackson fans among us too LotR and TH. Trilogy too although I have never and have no intention of ever playing those which should be no surprise to those here who know my views about those bastardizations of the lore. =)

Pettytyrant101 wrote:He may have seemed more militant than Christ- Halfy

Not sure about that, what Jesus did in the Temple, and more particularity when he did it, struck at the very core of not just the Priesthoods but also the Law itself to which the Temple was central )but like all anarchists he didn't actually offer an alternative- how were people supposed to get a sacrifice of the right type of animal or bird as the Law told them to when they transgressed, if there wasn't a Temple system to provide it conveniently? Jesus didn't bother with stuff like that, more of a grand gesture sort of politician, like Trump!)

My thought here is Jesus had come to do away with sacrifice of animals full stop, his own death was going to make it obsolete, and all He did in the Temple in overturning tables etcetera was make it clear to the Temple Authorities (and Presthood) that Temple Sacrifice was a dishonest corrupt money making scheme and no longer true sacrifice of the Old Testament kind, anyway.

Music- I think we agree - but I do find when I see someone like Trump who gets such large public support to be mindful of historical figures- and that people haven't changed and we should always consider the possibility some figures, maybe even Jesus, were more like a Trump phenomenon than they were a supernatural one.

Anne- I would have to disagree, when Jesus overturned the tables he had no idea he was to be the ultimate sacrifice or he would not have been so shocked and despairing when it happened.
Seems more likely to me his followers after his death saw the opportunity to make political use of hos death as a sacrifice metaphor in order to continue and justify their opposition to the sacrifice system (and I dont think corruption was the main motivator, so much as most of the Jewish population were living in greek cities where they felt a bit silly doing sacrifices that every other major religion had given up long ago, plus it was very hard to do in a city far from the Temple, you needed the animals and birds, you had to go out somehwere to sacrifice them, it annoyed your gentile neighbours ect)



Regarding Rhun and ME- I always took Me to mean the world not just that continent (definitely not just the bit of map we get). Middle as in the physical plane between the upper earth and lower earths or heaven and hell, in accordance with many old beliefs in northern Europe.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Anne- I would have to disagree, when Jesus overturned the tables he had no idea he was to be the ultimate sacrifice or he would not have been so shocked and despairing when it happened.

That raises an interesting idea: Did Jesus not know He was God until after His resurrection?

It's all so much easier if you just accept Richard Carrier's well argued thesis that the historical Jesus never existed.

Petty, I was just inspired to send you a link it was accompanied by the words " This is for comparing me to the don "
I  personally make no claims of being a prophet or a voodo king mind you and this message reflects in no way my personal feelings towards you I beg you to bear in mind. =) but I sense you offended someone

http://www.confusionroad.com/files/includes/images/article_images-jesus_finger.jpg

Well he always did come across as a bit touchy.

Um, be sure to use the moniker "The Donald". "The Don" might be confused with the "Good Don", which should not be done in these pages.

Oh indeed?  Forgive my faux-pas I beg you. Actually forgive my multiple ones.
Some may be even more offended by the linked image in which case I ask their forgiveness as well.

My wife happened to see that today on a web page and she enjoys petty's posts and when she heard I was giving him a bit of grief for comparing trump to jesus she showed me the photo to link.

Btw to any of us who are Christians here.
I have no issues with Jesu myself. although I don't consider myself as a christian I  agree with most everything he is recorded as saying.

There are some odd bits that I suspect were added by others later that I don't buy.

But for the most part Jesu is allright with me and I gotta believe for the most part he would reciprocate.

I have numerous complaints about his alleged followers and the heads of his churches to be sure however.

But I mean no disrespect to anyones personal faith or beliefs.

Oh Music, dear lad; this is Forumshire. If you want to offend somebody, you need to really throw yourself into it. Faint chance of raising so much of an eyebrow otherwise. I suggest you get yourself over to the creative corner and study up on the New Wholesome Tales thread. Let that be your yardstick of just how far you can carry things. Then buck up and get to work. If you manage to offend Azriel there's a special commendation in it for you.

Why thankyou Halfy !

Well thats good to know. Thanks for easing my mind. My mom told me to never discuss religion or politics, that it is bad manners. =)

Some folks have sacred cows that are best left sleeping and therefore gather no moss...or some such sage wisdom that she could never get me to grasp.

I have never seen the thread you mentioned my curiosity is stimulated and I shall go now to indulge it.

although I don't consider myself as a christian I  agree with most everything he is recorded as saying.- <usic

One of the good things I find about not believing in Gods is that it doesn't invalidate the good useful stuff in the Bible or other religious books, it just stops them being the word of an invisible unprovable super-being and makes them, for me, the much more powerful wisdom of human at our best.
I live in a country built on the moral principles of the Bible, as do Americans for that matter- our laws ect are derived from a weird mix of the pagan, and the Christian, but the Christian had the bigger impact in the end because it was lucky enough to coincided with writing and civilisation spreading.

But I can look at stuff Jesus says, like the sentiments of the Sermon on the Mount* and see them simply as very good human ideas, thought of and articulated by humans to humans, and worth preserving for their intrinsic value. But I don't need the God bit, which means I can see stuff like homosexuality being an abomination for what it is to, also not the words of a super-being, but those of humans. And as such I am free to dismiss them as being towards the worse end of human thinking not the better end and as thinking which does not transcend its own time. Othe rideas are however timeless to humans and so worth embracing.


* I could equally say the same of Hillel the Elder of course, who preached the generation before Jesus, and as he died in 10AD its even possible the young Jesus heard him speak.
One of the interesting things here is that people think Jesus was like a bolt of blue out of nowhere saying things no-one had thought of before or said. When in fact Hillel could have given the Sermon on the Mount speech as easily as Jesus.
Jesus was just an extension of a direction of thinking that had been going on for at least a generation by his time (The Baptist also being a very important representative of that movement).
My favourite Hillel saying is probably this one because its ending always makes me think he possessed the wisdom of crabbit! -

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn it."



"My wife happened to see that today on a web page and she enjoys petty's posts"- Music

Is she drunk when she reads them? (I do hope so I'm certainly drunk when I write them! )

To drag this thread temporarily back on topic, is it worth merging it with the Tolkien news thread?

http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t887-the-general-tolkien-news-thread

The threads have similar purposes (when on topic) afterall.


As for myself, I'm not an atheist per se, but like many Brits nowadays I just never really think about religion, I respect those who hold religious views, and I understand the benefits it brings from a spiritual or cultural point of view, and without wishing to offend anyone personally I think it causes as many problems as it solves, and I just find the concept a little baffling (that's not to say believing in a giant all powerful invisible dude in the heavens is any less weirder than the Big Bang, it's just not a belief I personally follow), if God is real I'm sure he's going to judge me on the life I have lead and my moral actions, regardless of whether I believe in him/her/it or not.

To drag this thread temporarily back on topic- Malick

How dare you!...oh I see you puit it back off topic at the end- well done that lad!

"is it worth merging it with the Tolkien news thread?"

That is probably worth considering, tidy the place up a bit, but we shall have to await the arrival of our Lord and Master Eldo because he has all the buttons, and frankly, between you and I, the rest of us mods haven't a clue how any of it works and just pretend we do. Well some pretend we do, I'm not sure its really worth the effort for me to even pretend.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:To drag this thread temporarily back on topic- Malick

How dare you!...oh I see you puit it back off topic at the end- well done that lad!  

Even if I hadn't I'm sure Norc or Blue will be along shortly to continue off topic fun/madness

tidy the place up a bit

Slighty odd to see those words coming from you Petty

On a serious note, there's probably a few other threads that could be merged, the traffic to the forum is so low (relatively) that it probably isn't worth the hassle, but it would declutter the forum a little and maybe refocus/bump up a few old discussions.

between you and I, the rest of us mods haven't a clue how any of it works and just pretend we do. Well some pretend we do, I'm not sure its really worth the effort for me to even pretend.

I'm been here just over two years now and I thought that was the general strategy i.e make it up as we go along and hope it turns out for the best

The only way anyone could be really offended on this forum is if somebody dissed Tolkien. everything else is up for grabs, including Petty's kilt.