Re: Tolkien in General

by halfwise Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:23 pm

Pshaw. Mere technicalities. He was still a Maia embodied in the form of a man, sent by the Valar to combat Sauron. He was simply amped up a bit. If he really was sent to fight power with power he would have been sent directly to Frodo to get the ring and fly it to the fire. That should have been an easy task for a Maia.

"Naked I was sent back...until my task is done."

by azriel Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:51 pm

Was an interesting article to read tho. Even if it sounds outlandish its always fascinating to view what others think.

by Music of the Ainur Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:41 pm

Don't misunderstand me...

He is talking about Gandalf the White as being something other than an Istari, not Gandalf the Grey.

It makes some sense because didn't Gandalf the grey basically die after the balrog?

Well that makes him something different perhaps.

Gandalf grey arrived on a ship as any corporeal being who has the normal limitations of flesh would.
Gandalf the white just jumped into the empty body of the grey.

The Istari were not allowed to match power with power. G the G did so with the Balrog. He died as a result.

Five Istari were sent. Gandalf the White was not among them.
He Became manifest only after the Gray was gone.

Does it make him something else when he's left his body and checked back in with the Vala and then is sent back with enhanced powers?

Gandalf the white had different knowledge and memories than the Gray. Does this make them two distinct entities?

Not necessarily but... made me think.

I'm not prepared to say the white was not a wizard, but interesting points are made.

Peace to all

by azriel Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:52 pm

I think a lot of that article made a lot of sense. I enjoyed reading it Very Happy

Seems funny in a way, picking the bones of a story that is pure fantasy. But it was so well written, it sounded for all the world as tho it WAS true, it DID happen, I can lose myself in the LOTRs story & Im so grateful for that !! I can escape & be with Gimli, Aragorn & Legolas as they search for Frodo, I can see myself sitting in the garden at Bag End & I can feel myself being scared witless up against Trolls & Goblins. This story has saved my bacon several times in my life, those nasty dark corners you get trapped in & can see no way out, only more misery coming !

by Mrs Figg Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:53 pm

He was definitely more fey as Gandalf the White. Gandalf the Grey was more earthy. Reminds me a bit of the nature of the 4 elements. he was Earth as Gandalf the Grey, he went through Fire and Water, and he was resurrected through Air.

by Music of the Ainur Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:57 pm

Halfwise I see your points and don't disagree.

Even though the white was different and more powerful than the gray as first arrived he was indeed still a maia sent on a mission to oppose Bad child sauron.

But does this update/enhancement make him something else and not one of the five originally senr?

It made me think. There are points which cause thought in me.

by Music of the Ainur Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:07 pm

Azriel, I can relate to your feelings.

It is strange but I have always felt such "real " substance in JRR s M.E. it's like he was an observer of some other plane of reality. Not just making it up.

His world has such depth and beauty that it pulls me back again and again.

He has given us a beautiful and potent device to shield us from some of the ugliness of the " real " world.

Health and prosperity to you all...

by David H Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:12 pm

Music of the Ainur wrote:

The Istari were not allowed to match power with power. G the G did so with the Balrog. He died as a result.

Hi Music. That seems to be the crux of the arguement: that Gandalf the Grey somehow broke the rules and died because of it. I have a hard time accepting that theory. What even is the definition of "power against power"? It's clearly not the use of force or magic to kill things. I'm thinking about Gandalf killing the Great Goblin, and a little later setting Wargs on fire.

For me it's much easier to accept that Gandalf didn't die in any real sense but rather, having passed through a major ordeal, was awarded the title of "White" and given a new set of marching orders, and like many ordeals there are mysteries that are best represented as a symbolic death and rebirth. IMHO taking that death/rebirth too literally makes more problems than it solves.

by Elthir Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:01 pm

I'm aware of the "Death of Author" approach to things, but in any case, Tolkien had the following opinions about Gandalf's death and return...

"Gandalf really "died", and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called "death" as making no difference."

[...]

"Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to "the Rules": for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success."

"That, I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saurman. The "wizards", as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned."

[...]

"He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominaring wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an "angel" -- no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison. He seldom does so, operating rather through others, but in one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power: he twice rescues Faramir..."

[...]

"But if it is "cheating" to treat "death" as making no difference, embodiement must not be ignored. Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh. He has no more (if no less) certitudes, or freedoms, than say a living theologian."

JRRT, draft letter 156 (excerpts)

by Anne Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:05 pm

Gandalf managed to get to the top of the mountain where he seems to have fainted or similar; the dying is not absolutely certain in my view. When he awoke he was saved by an eagle. This implies to me he never passed from the physical form, though psychically or spiritually he appears to have gone somewhere and been changed, certainly from his 'grey' being to his 'white' being, whatever that means. Tangentially speaking: Saruman was "The White" and Gandalf is now "the White" as if it's some kind of honorific or title, a 'rank' even; which makes me wonder if Saruman was no longer "the White" except in name?

by Elthir Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:34 pm

In my opinion Tolkien ultimately imagined that Gandalf died, passing out of thought and time. But again one might argue that the reader need never mind the author's opinion (as I interpret certain statements above from draft letter 156 anyway) when interpreting the text itself. It might be worth noting however, that in the first edition (first three printings) Gandalf says:

"I have not passed through fire and flood to bandy crooked words with a serving man" The King of the Golden Hall

But in the fourth printing (1956) Tolkien revised "fire and flood" to "fire and death..."

For what that's worth anyway Very Happy

by David H Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:38 am

Elthir wrote:
he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh. He has no more (if no less) certitudes, or freedoms, than say a living theologian."

Or a Loremaster, for that matter. Nod

by Anne Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:48 am

I pose the question: if Gandalf actually died above Moria then did he return fully mortal and risk being killed again by the Witch King?

by halfwise Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:17 pm

Interesting that Tolkien capitalized The Rules, making it clear that they were not just guidelines.

This came closest to what I thought of the Gandalf transformation: "The "wizards", as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned."

I also think Anne's reading of passing psychically to another place and returning makes sense: if he had not returned, his body would have expired, but it's not clear that he really died; more sort of held in suspension until judgement was made to revive him or not. He talks about not knowing how long he lay there as the stars wheeled overhead...sounds like not quite death.

by Elthir Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:56 pm

I think passing out of time itself is not something living people normally do. Same letter as above...

"[...] He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not disincarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment."

And so Iluvatar, himself existing outside of time, brings Gandalf back. And the Wizards could certainly die...

"By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour."

And then, as noted, Tolkien actually revises a line in which Gandalf says he pased through fire and flood, because...

"Gandalf really "died", and was changed, for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called death as making no difference. "I am G. the white, who has returned from death". Probably he should have said to Wormtongue: "I have not passed through death (not fire and flood) to bandy words with a crooked serving-man."

Tolkien said that in 1954, and revised his book accordingly in 1956.

by Elthir Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:14 pm

... but it's not clear that he really died; more sort of held in suspension until judgement was made to revive him or not. He talks about not knowing how long he lay there as the stars wheeled overhead...sounds like not quite death.

Gandalf talking about the stars and so on is after he passed out of thought and time however, and notably, after he says he was sent back. In another letter:

"Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees."

JRRT, letter 181

by Music of the Ainur Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:47 pm

Thank you very kindly Elthir for JRR s thoughts on the matter.

Even on my first read of LotR I took it as he died and was sent back more powerful than before.

Although it was written in a nebulous fashion that is the way I took it.

I think as well that Gandalf knew what he was doing when he decided to lay down his life in defense of the ring bearer by facing the Balrog.

He was in a desperate spot and knew all was lost if he didn't stand and let the company escape.

When he died he was judged and forgiven his actions and returned stronger than before.

Of course this is just my opinion...

I suppose no mention was made by JRR about him radiating light and being weightless?

by Music of the Ainur Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:22 am

your reference above about..." by incarnate" I mean... capable of death...

Was this refering specifically to the returned Gandalf or the original Istari?

If it was the returned then that answers the question about him being a formless weightless being now.

by Music of the Ainur Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:59 am

Anne I think I'm safe to say that the witch king was no match for Gandalf.

As he himself said at the reunion with Aragorn Legolas and Gimli only Sauron was more perilous than he.

A Balrog was much more fearsome than the leader of the nine.

I'm sure I will be corrected if the lore doesn't support me.

by Elthir Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:04 pm

Music of the Ainur wrote:your reference above about..." by incarnate" I mean... capable of death... Was this refering specifically to the returned Gandalf or the original Istari? If it was the returned then that answers the question about him being a formless weightless being now.

That excerpt was about the Istari in general... this one refers to Gandalf after his return however (after his enhancement of power)...

"But if it is "cheating" to treat "death" as making no difference, embodiement must not be ignored. Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh. He has no more (if no less) certitudes, or freedoms, than say a living theologian."

by Music of the Ainur Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:54 pm

Thanks again for your time and knowledge of the lore Elthir.
It is nice to have access to fountains of Tolkien lore.

=) you be well

by Music of the Ainur Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:21 pm

David H wrote:
Music of the Ainur wrote:

The Istari were not allowed to match power with power. G the G did so with the Balrog. He died as a result.

Hi Music. That seems to be the crux of the arguement: that Gandalf the Grey somehow broke the rules and died because of it. I have a hard time accepting that theory. What even is the definition of "power against power"? It's clearly not the use of force or magic to kill things. I'm thinking about Gandalf killing the Great Goblin, and a little later setting Wargs on fire.

Good points but I will say that while I love TH in my opinion it is easier to overlook inconsistencies with the lore in it than his other "more serious " works.

I may be opening the door for a tongue lashing by saying that...

It could be argued that Gandalf didn't intend to kill the G goblin. That he was only trying to create a diversion and got carried away perhaps.

Also, I don't know that the ban on matching power for power applies in the mentioned cases. I took that to mean that he could not have supernatural battles against other Maia folk.

I don't think he was forbidden to fight or kill. Torching some wargs isn't matching power for power, nor was the G. Goblin battle in my humble opinion.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:33 pm

I'd agree with you there Music.
My reading of the fight power with power ban is that it only applies to creatures of a non natural status, like the Balrog, or the Nine (its worth remembering too that as the Grey Gandalf could either not withstand the Nine - I think thats the phrase he uses- or he was lying and he choose not to do and yielded before them because he was not allowed to match power with power (I would argue his confrontation on Weathertop was one of self defence- Gandalf does not appear to have done anything to harm or hinder the 9 in that encounter).

by halfwise Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:18 pm

Tolkien was likely being inspired by the example of Christ, whose mission was one of inspiration, but needed to get people's attention first. Gandalf would use just enough power to get people's respect, often while protecting those he was trying to guide and inspire.

He may have seemed more militant than Christ, who had no interest in the Romans, only the spiritual world. Gandalf was fighting a corporeal evil. Remember that Christ would cast out demons, etc.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:43 pm

He may have seemed more militant than Christ- Halfy

Not sure about that, what Jesus did in the Temple, and more particularity when he did it, struck at the very core of not just the Priesthoods but also the Law itself to which the Temple was central )but like all anarchists he didn't actually offer an alternative- how were people supposed to get a sacrifice of the right type of animal or bird as the Law told them to when they transgressed, if there wasn't a Temple system to provide it conveniently? Jesus didn't bother with stuff like that, more of a grand gesture sort of politician, like Trump!)