Tolkien in General

Nice! I didn't get far enough in to experience all that.

{{{ Huan! Welcome back! And thanks for sharing your trip with us. If we ever have a Forumshire meet up thats the pub to have it in I say! What sort of state were the gravestones in when you visited? I seem to recall when our own Tinuviel visited it was all a bit overgrown and surprisingly unattended to . }}

Hiya Huan, What a great entrance It was lovely to see those snaps. I think maybe being in the pub the Inklings used must be a great feeling & a great way to connect. Almost soul full. The grave would be the choker for me. Strong vibes.

Huan wrote:Hello there. I did have another account here a few years ago, but I couldn't remember what my username was and I happened to guess Huan correctly and it turns out I never posted on this account. Quite why I had 2 in the first place I am sure I do not know! I think it was called Carcharoth.

Ah, I definitely remember the username Carcharoth! Good to see you around again.

{{{I can't speak as to your personal experience, but having multiple accounts used to be quite fashionable around here. }}}

Don't you just know it !

Eldorion wrote:

Huan wrote:Hello there. I did have another account here a few years ago, but I couldn't remember what my username was and I happened to guess Huan correctly and it turns out I never posted on this account. Quite why I had 2 in the first place I am sure I do not know! I think it was called Carcharoth.

Ah, I definitely remember the username Carcharoth! Good to see you around again.

{{{I can't speak as to your personal experience, but having multiple accounts used to be quite fashionable around here. }}}

I wonder, are you referring to Petty or Odo by any chance

Any particular reason why we have a Tolkien in General thread, and a Tolkien news thread? (Admittedly I started the latter without realizing this had preceded it) it's not like we don't have a tendecy to go off topic on this forum...

malickfan wrote:I wonder, are you referring to Petty or Odo by any chance

Among other people (myself included).

Any particular reason why we have a Tolkien in General thread, and a Tolkien news thread? (Admittedly I started the latter without realizing this had preceded it) it's not like we don't have a tendecy to go off topic on this forum...

I think you answered your own question there. Not that I'm complaining since I think your news thread has been a valuable addition to this subforum.

Eldorion wrote:Not that I'm complaining since I think your news thread has been a valuable addition to this subforum.

Thanks, I am useful sometimes then

To sound a little arrogant I'd probably agree, Tolkien related discussion has died down a lot here over the last couple of years (though I think that holds true across the internet) but it's been very useful to have lots of news stories and updates posted by myself and others in one thread.

{{Thought was a sound theory- I always thought Gandalf died when he fell and was returned to life, but hadn't given much thought to who sent him back }}

If he hadn't backed it up with Tolkien's letters I would have pooh-poohed it. But it seems pretty irrefutable.

Gandalf being returned to life by Ilúvatar is the consensus view in my experience. I wouldn't call it a fan theory since I think that implies speculation; there's just not really any other coherent way to interpret the relevant passages. The "strayed out of thought and time" quote is the clincher. The Valar's power is restricted to Eä (the physical universe), but the only way to escape time is to leave Eä entirely. To be fair this is only made clear in The Silmarillion and not elaborated on at length except in The History of Middle-earth and the Letters, IIRC.

There were a couple things I didn't agree with, though. I don't agree that Gandalf was freed from the restrictions placed on the Istari after his return. The letter quoted as evidence literally states that Gandalf was "still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills". His behavior did change somewhat, yes, as did his nature (though I don't think there's any reason to think that he's immune to physical harm as opposed to simply being powerful enough to prevent anyone from hitting him with a weapon), but he's still under the most important restriction on the Istari.

Part of this disagreement comes down to what the restrictions placed on the Istari were, though. Aside from Gandalf's vague mystical pronouncements in Fangorn, I don't think there's anything to suggest that his memories of the West were locked away. UT, "The Istari" states only that they were forbidden from trying to dominate the free peoples (though "forbidden" doesn't meant it was impossible for them to do so, as Saruman proved). They were aware of their mission: TS, "Of the Rings of Power" states that they told Elrond and Galadriel that they came from over the Sea, and one of the accounts in UT mentions Gandalf and Círdan's conversation during which Círdan gives his Ring to Gandalf to use in the carrying out of his mission. You could argue that most of the details of their memory had been wiped and ... I guess? I can't think of any quotes to disprove that offhand. But I'm more inclined to think that Gandalf's mind was just a little frazzled from the whole experience of dying and returning, as he also states that he had "forgotten much that [he] thought [he] knew".

I was glad that the guy who made the video shot down the color = power level idea as I agree that has no textual basis. All in all pretty good.

To elaborate a bit on the subject of divinity in Arda, Tolkien was also clear that Gollum fell into the Crack of Doom because of divine intervention and strongly implies that Ilúvatar was the one who made it so that Bilbo found the Ring, as referenced in Gandalf's line about Bilbo and Frodo being meant to have it, but not by the Ring's maker (Letters, no. 192). It's not really clear to me if we're meant to assume that this is a regular occurrence but I don't think we are, since the Valar's authority is usually stressed and when Ilúvatar destroyed Númenor it was at the request of Manwë and the Valar are stated to have temporarily "laid down their government of Arda" (TS, Akallabêth). But then he speaks to Aulë on his own initiative before giving souls to the Dwarves so yeah. I think the concept of Grace was important to Tolkien, especially as its closely entwined with eucatastrophe, though sometimes Grace came from the Valar as in the War of Wrath and Frodo being allowed to pass into the West before his death (footnote to Letters, no. 246).

I wouldn't call the "out of thought and time" statement a clincher because that would just as well describe a drug trip; a description of psychological state rather than reality.

To me the main reason to attribute his return to the Valar was his statement "...I was sent back, until my task was done." Since the Valar originally set him to the task, one would think they would be the ones to ensure it was completed. And as the story of Beren shows the Valar do indeed have the power to return the dead to life. So it is only Tolkien's statements in his letters that could have convinced me Gandalf was sent back by Iluvatar.

I think I see where you're coming from, though I think the wider context of the legendarium is important here. Normally an Ainu (Vala or Maia) who had been using the same form for a long time and then lost that body doesn't end up "going" anywhere since they are by nature incorporeal. They stick around in Arda and their newly disembodied spirit goes wherever they choose, as Sauron did multiple times. But the Istari were in the unique position of having been given actual, metaphysically human bodies. The appointed fate of humans post-bodily death is to leave Eä entirely since their souls belong to Eru rather than the Valar, and that is what precisely what Gandalf's description implies. (Being human is in fact the only way to leave Eä 99.99% of the time.) So with that in mind I tend to interpret Gandalf's phrasing in the cosmological sense, though the Letters are very important evidence too, to be sure.

Sorta tangential, but glancing over the chapter on the Istari in UT again, it is noted that the Valar had "the consent of Eru" to "clad" the Istari in "real and not feigned" human bodies. I'm inclined to think that the consent of Eru was necessary for this rather than a mere courtesy since the Children of Ilúvatar were made specifically by him (Elves and Men were, anyway, and sorta-kinda Dwarves) and he maintained a special authority there.

Never noticed the consent clause before, that's pretty interesting and I think your speculation is on target. Eru would therefore have special interest in the Istari.

The Silmarillion was first published 40 years ago today

Eldorion wrote:Gandalf being returned to life by Ilúvatar is the consensus view in my experience.

Yeah, well, couldn't keep him here. Had to listen to nonstop blathering about "returning to Middle Earth" and "they need me" for weeks, do you know how annoying that gets? It was that or toss him in Mount Doom.

Oh, and this thread has been blessed by Eru or whatever.

Oh my god, dad, you never give me credit for anything! I know that you always loved Melkor more than me.

As you can see, the blathering wasn't just from Gandalf. Melkor, at least, knows when to shut up.

You disowned him and he hasn't spoken to you since!

Precisely.

We've just been treated to a celestial spam run!

{{ According to The Hobbit Bandobras Took's two main claims to fame where his stature, allowing him to ride a horse, and knocking a goblins head clean off with his club and down a rabbit hole, inventing the game of golf.

Now should the reference to golf be taken as a conceit- that Tolkien in translating the Red Book decided for some reaosn to do so as a children's tale and so as 'narrator' embellished it including references to things know at the time of his 'translation' to his child audience, like golf and pop-guns?
Or alternatively, should the Shire have a golf course? }}}

So Hobbits can be feisty little things & charge towards an enemy on their hairy little feet when asked to Tho golf seemed to be forgotten & I see no evidence of a clubhouse ?

{{If there is a clubhouse bet you anything a Sackville-Baggins is Club President!   }}