Re: Doctor Who [10]

by Mrs Figg Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:32 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Have you two actually found some common ground here? RTD did do something right in hiering Moffat?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooah! Mad

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:35 pm

Wasnt he on the Ark?

by Mrs Figg Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:54 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its not just the nods to the past- he has slowly but surely restructured the feel of the Whoverse back towards a more classic feel for me.

you mean he has used a few past villains and the stories are in colourless black and white

RTD- wiped out all the Time Lords offscreen- Moffat brought them back but kept them at a distance to keep a bit of mystery about them but not so distant they cant have a ready excuse to feature them in stories every now and again if they want to.

you mean he brought them back to life as a convenience and managed to destroy Ecclestons story arc for some half baked faux moral dilemma

Every other episode being modern earth (and specifically London) centric has greatly reduced as well-

apart from the omnipresent Victorian steampunk Moffat world?

we spend more time in other new places than under RTD.

I doubt that. Moffats stories seem to be mainly on Earth

And when Moffat does go to earth he doesn't always set in London, present or past like RTD seemed to-

neither did RTD

under Moffat we have had a sub under the Atlantic, Victorian Yorkshire, New York (present and past) Death Valley, a brief appearance from Glasgow as well as a few visits to modern day London and Victorian London- the variety is greater.

bollox

And most of all the Doctor himself, with the two Moffat incarnations we have had we have got closer to original Doctors, less human more alien. And now less predictable too, as he should be.

as he should be for you everyone else may disagree with that generalization

These are all facets of classic Who that had gone a bit awol under RTD's version.

No actually under RTD he singlehandedly made WHO relevant for modern audiences, revitalized the whole series and made it a success. under Moffats version plots seem to have gone awol

As for not enough butter- after series 8 I would say there was a not only butter there is jam too! In fact Capaldi in his performance pretty much can provide the jam all on his own. (And in fairness to Jenna she put in a few powerhouse performances in series 8 too)

if you like your jam watered down to a thin and pale gloop with no taste and a dead fly legs up

But yes there are still occasional posing explosions for poster and trailers moments (though greatly reduced on the RTD era)

by Bluebottle Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:11 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:Have you two actually found some common ground here? RTD did do something right in hiering Moffat?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooah!

Ok then.

by malickfan Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:14 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its not just the nods to the past- he has slowly but surely restructured the feel of the Whoverse back towards a more classic feel for meAlthough I've watched relatively little of Classic Who I do sorta see where you are coming from. RTD's version didn't feel much like Classic Who for me (at least at first) tonally (both visually and storywise) in some ways felt more like a continuation of the TV film but mostly a family soap with sci-fi elements, Moffat's stories seem more like Hard sci-fi.

RTD- wiped out all the Time Lords offscreenI should point out this was actually done several years earlier in the BBC Eigth Doctor books (which I am considering reading soon)-which were offically licensed continuation of the show, so it's not an entirely drastic decision - Moffat brought them back but kept them at a distance to keep a bit of mystery about them but not so distant they cant have a ready excuse to feature them in stories every now and again if they want toI don't see why people would have a problem with it-some viewers found Timelords boring, so .
Every other episode being modern earth (and specifically London) centric has greatly reduced as wellEh? Series 8 says differently- we spend more time in other new places than under RTDTrue, but I think that was a good move on RTD's part to drip feed things into the series, by having the companion have a much bigger role, and casting Eccleston (an actor known for adult drama) he anchored it to modern day britain, jumping straight into exploring Alien Worlds could alienate newcomers-such as myself at the time. And when Moffat does go to earth he doesn't always set in London, present or past like RTD seemed to- under Moffat we have had a sub under the Atlantic, Victorian Yorkshire, New York (present and past) Death Valley, a brief appearance from Glasgow as well as a few visits to modern day London and Victorian London- the variety is greaterCan't argue with this.
And most of all the Doctor himself, with the two Moffat incarnations we have had we have got closer to original Doctors, less human more alien. And now less predictable too, as he should beAgreed, the Doctor should be an Alien trying to be Human not a Human trying to be Alien. Tennant falls flat for me in retrospect, his Doctor was too safe and nice, rarely seemed like an Alien Timelord.

These are all facets of classic Who that had gone a bit awol under RTD's version.

As for not enough butter- after series 8 I would say there was a not only butter there is jam too! In fact Capaldi in his performance pretty much can provide the jam all on his own. (And in fairness to Jenna she put in a few powerhouse performances in series 8 too)

But yes there are still occasional posing explosions for poster and trailers moments (though greatly reduced on the RTD era)

by malickfan Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:22 pm

[quote="Mrs Figg"]

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

you mean he brought them back to life as a convenience and managed to destroy Ecclestons story arc for some half baked faux moral dilemma

I don't see what the issue is here, in Doctor Who Magazine Moffat confirmed the War Doctor destroyed Gallifrey the first time round (and presumably the 2nd when Tennant turned up for the first time) before the Moment and all the timey wimey stuff happened, so Gallifrey's destruction still happened at least once from the Doctors point of view (though the time-lop shit still confuses the hell out of me), even if the Destruction had been reversed Gallifrey's still lost in a parallel universe and the 9th Doctor won't remember saving it, so the tragedy is still there, all Moffat did was take the opportunity to set up the potential for possible future storylines with other timelords, it dosen't effect the 9th Doctors rage or agony in my eyes, if anything it makes it more tragic imo.

Personally the 'Last of The Timelords' and 'Warrior of the Time War' arc for the Doctor was getting a bit dull for me, although the timelord mythology looks kinda boring and dense, I welcome the possible storylines it could bring.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:25 pm

you mean he has used a few past villains and the stories are in colourless black and white- Figg

No, I dont mean that at all- I mean it feels in mood and style more like classic Who and less like Eastenders. The universe the show inhabits is closer to the one of classic Who than to RTD era Who. Which was Who-lite.

you mean he brought them back to life as a convenience and managed to destroy Ecclestons story arc for some half baked faux moral dilemma- Figg

No, he put an end to a mopey, emop Doctor whining about the universe full of guilt and angst. It as a good dramatic device, but only for the short term, as a long term permanent plot device it got really stale.
It also narrowed the Whouniverse down by making it much harder for the Time Lords to come into the plot.

apart from the omnipresent Victorian steampunk Moffat world?- Figg

Omnipresent- you mean we've been there exactly four times- and two of them we are only the for part of the episode- A Good Man Goes to War (only the opening when he recruits Vastra) the Snowmen, Cirimson Horror (again only for the opening the rest is set in Victorian Yorkshire) and Deep Breath- the only episode set entirely in Victorian London.
So four times, and only one full episode set there in 56 Moffat era episodes- omnipresent Figg? I think you exaggerate.

"doubt that. Moffats stories seem to be mainly on Earth"- Figg

Lets compare shall we!
Mofat earth based episodes- 29 out of which only 6 are set in the preset day, the rest are al historical pieces. And of those 29 episodes only 1 (Bells of St John) is set in pesent day London.

RTD- 29 episodes earth based (same as Noffat) out of which 19 are set in present day UK. 19! And of those episodes all 19 are set in present day London.

So lets compare final figures here for modern day London centric episodes- RTD- 19 Moffat - 1

'bollox' _Figg

How exactly is it bollox? I can give you all the episode titles for each of those settings, and I missed some out to, like Provance for the Van Gogh episode.

as he should be for you everyone else may disagree with that generalization- Figg

Others may disagree, but they would be wrong, in that classic Who era the Doctor is more alien and less human than he ever was under RTD. Its simply a fact.

'No actually under RTD he singlehandedly made WHO relevant for modern audiences, revitalized the whole series and made it a success.'

I never said he didnt. But in my view Who never stopped being relevant, it never did die off even after it stopped appearing on TV, its fans never went away, they just waited. But him successfully bringing it back has nothing to do with the fact it was Who-lite and he jettisoned much of he stuff that made the Whouniverse the Whouniverse.

'if you like your jam watered down to a thin and pale gloop with no taste and a dead fly legs up'

Thats honestly your opinion of Capaldi's performance? Wow. Do you watch it blindfolded with ear plugs in (I think you should probably start if thats your view of it).

all Moffat did was take the opportunity to set up the potential for possible future storylines with other timelords, it dosen't effect the 9th Doctors rage or agony in my eyes, if anything it makes it more tragic imo.- Malick

I agree with that.

by Mrs Figg Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:28 pm

well Tennant wasn't a complete lying and manipulative twat to his companions like Smith and Capaldi were, so yep I suppose he was safer and nicer, but he wasn't safe and nice to his ememies.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:38 pm

7 was hugely manipulative and lying, as was 6 for that matter, as well as very unpredictable. 5 was the closest to RTD era style Doctor, 4 was uniquely alien, 3 was more strait laced but not beyond a falsehood or two when he felt it was warranted, 2 was a master manipulator playing the fool and scheming all the time for the overthrow of his enemies, and one lied almost continually in the first series and tried to smash a cavemans head in for slowing them down.

When Moffat said "Rule 1- the Doctor lies" its literally true as in the the very first thing the character of the Doctor does on screen in the very first episode is lie his arse off before kidnapping two humans (when he knows he cant bring them back as he doesn't know how to navigate the TARDIS as she is a bit knackered). Lying and scheming are the very first parts of his character we are introduced to.

You can feel free for not liking that, but you cant blame Moffat for it.

I thnk the Doctors attitude is beautifully summed up in the speech at the end of Mummy on the Orient Express-

CLARA: So, when you lied to Maisie, when you made me lie to Maisie
DOCTOR: I couldn't risk Gus finding out my plan and stopping me.
CLARA: So you were pretending to be heartless.
DOCTOR: Would you like to think that about me? Would that make it easier? I didn't know if I could save her. I couldn't save Quell, I couldn't save Moorhouse. There was a good chance that she'd die too. At which point, I would have just moved onto the next, and the next, until I beat it. Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones. But you still have to choose.

by malickfan Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:well Tennant wasn't a complete lying and manipulative twat to his companions like Smith and Capaldi were, so yep I suppose he was safer and nicer, but he wasn't safe and nice to his ememies.

That's one of my regrets about Tennant's Doctor actually, I've seen him act in quite a few other things and I think (if given the opportunity) he could do dark and manipulative just as well as Smith or Capaldi (he was great at this in Human Nature/Family of Blood and The Waters of Mars), it would have probably had more impact coming from such a 'human' doctor, Tennant was my favourite growing up, as he was so friendly and relatable but in retrospect after watching some of the Classic Doctors, it kinda felt like a step back, he never seemed to have the edge or quirk Eccleston or Smith had, almost as if RTD were afraid of Alienating the audience (in a program about Aliens...), Tennant was a very dependible hero and it easy to see why companions would trvale with him...but as a viewer watching him...it can be a little boring.

But each to their own.

Shrugging

by Mrs Figg Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:14 pm

I was never bored with Tennant, I have been frequently bored with Capaldi I don't think he is anywhere near as good.

by Mrs Figg Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:19 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:you mean he has used a few past villains and the stories are in colourless black and white- Figg

No, I dont mean that at all- I mean it feels in mood and style more like classic Who and less like Eastenders. The universe the show inhabits is closer to the one of classic Who than to RTD era Who. Which was Who-lite.

Eastenders, you mean like the Clara Danny soap drama?

'if you like your jam watered down to a thin and pale gloop with no taste and a dead fly legs up'

Thats honestly your opinion of Capaldi's performance? Wow. Do you watch it blindfolded with ear plugs in (I think you should probably start if thats your view of it).

Capaldi is ok, just ok, nothing special, he needs another companion maybe that's whats bunging up the works, or maybe better writing

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:30 am

Capaldi is ok, just ok, nothing special

I have been frequently bored with Capaldi I don't think he is anywhere near as good.- Figg

Shocked

Bored with Capaldi's performance? How?! Granted there is personal taste involved here but I found him captivating, nuanced, unpredictable, challenging, funny, moving, layered, all the good things in fact- I even love how he moves, how he runs, it just screams 'The Doctor' to me, I dont have a single complaint about his performance. He is the Doctor. Nod

by Mrs Figg Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:22 pm

he isn't the Doctor for me. He is just some random bloke who says he is the Doctor until the real one turn up.

by malickfan Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:27 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:he isn't the Doctor for me. He is just some random bloke who says he is the Doctor until the real one turn up.

What makes the Doctor a real 'doctor' to you?

Capaldi is i.m.o far closer to the Doctors from Classic who than McGann-Smith.

by malickfan Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:28 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Capaldi is ok, just ok, nothing special

I have been frequently bored with Capaldi I don't think he is anywhere near as good.- Figg

Bored with Capaldi's performance? How?! Granted there is personal taste involved here but I found him captivating, nuanced, unpredictable, challenging, funny, moving, layered, all the good things in fact- I even love how he moves, how he runs, it just screams 'The Doctor' to me, I dont have a single complaint about his performance. He is the Doctor.

This//

by malickfan Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:33 pm

Doctor Who TV did a user poll to rank every episode since the revival:

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/all-117-episodes-of-the-revival-ranked-by-you-72528.htm

The Day of the Doctor 9.40
Blink 9.33
The Eleventh Hour 9.05
The Empty Child 9.06 / The Doctor Dances 9.04
Silence in the Library 9.00 / Forest of the Dead 9.01
Human Nature 8.81 / The Family of Blood 8.93
The Girl in the Fireplace 8.86
The Pandorica Opens 8.95 / The Big Bang 8.76
Listen 8.84
Mummy on the Orient Express 8.83
Dalek 8.83
Vincent and the Doctor 8.81
The Doctor’s Wife 8.76
Waters of Mars 8.74
Flatline 8.65
Bad Wolf 8.40 / The Parting of the Ways 8.87
The Impossible Astronaut 8.66 / Day of the Moon 8.55
Midnight 8.57
The Name of the Doctor 8.45
Turn Left 8.34
Dark Water 8.65 / Death in Heaven 7.89
A Good Man Goes to War 8.25
The Impossible Planet 8.23 / The Satan Pit 8.26
Deep Breath 8.24
The Time of Angels 8.23 / Flesh and Stone 8.12
The Stolen Earth 8.36 / Journey’s End 7.95
A Christmas Carol 8.13
The Snowmen 8.11
Utopia 8.45 / The Sound of Drums 8.24 / Last of the Time Lords 7.64
Last Christmas 8.10
The Girl Who Waited 8.05
Amy’s Choice 8.04
Asylum of the Daleks 8.02
School Reunion 8.01
Army of Ghosts 7.80 / Doomsday 8.17
The Time of the Doctor 7.97
The Angels Take Manhattan 7.86
The End of Time Part One 7.78 / The End of Time Part Two 7.91
The Christmas Invasion 7.80
The Fires of Pompeii 7.77
The God Complex 7.76
The Lodger 7.69
Father’s Day 7.65
The Bells of St John 7.62
Time Heist 7.56
Into the Dalek 7.54
Planet of the Ood 7.54
Rose 7.49
Hide 7.40
Smith and Jones 7.38
Partners in Crime 7.33
The Crimson Horror 7.28
Rise of the Cybermen 7.26 / The Age of Steel 7.30
The Wedding of River Song 7.21
The Runaway Bride 7.20
A Town Called Mercy 7.16
The Unicorn and the Wasp 7.15
The Caretaker 7.11
Tooth and Claw 7.11
The Unquiet Dead 7.08
Let’s Kill Hitler 7.06
The Sontaran Stratagem 7.06 / The Poison Sky 7.04
The End of the World 7.04
The Shakespeare Code 7.02
Gridlock 7.00
Voyage of the Damned 6.97
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship 6.89
The Hungry Earth 6.87 Cold Blood 6.88
Cold War 6.85
Kill the Moon 6.81
The Vampires of Venice 6.78
The Rings of Akhaten 6.77
The Beast Below 6.76
The Power of Three 6.74
42 6.69
The Doctor’s Daughter 6.68
Closing Time 6.58
Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS 6.55
Robot of Sherwood 6.55
Planet of the Dead 6.54
The Rebel Flesh 6.49 The Almost People 6.53
Boom Town 6.37
The Next Doctor 6.33
Nightmare in Silver 6.32
Aliens of London 6.30/ World War Three 6.34
Victory of the Daleks 6.20
New Earth 6.20
The Long Game 6.18
The Lazarus Experiment 6.06
Night Terrors 6.01
Daleks in Manhattan 5.90 / Evolution of the Daleks 5.80
The Idiot’s Lantern 5.76
The Curse of the Black Spot 5.43
The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe 5.38
In the Forest of the Night 5.32
Love & Monsters 4.52
Fear Her 4.17

by Mrs Figg Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:44 pm

malickfan wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:he isn't the Doctor for me. He is just some random bloke who says he is the Doctor until the real one turn up.

What makes the Doctor a real 'doctor' to you?

Capaldi is i.m.o far closer to the Doctors from Classic who than McGann-Smith.

I don't really compare the Doctor to classic Who, I just go off how I feel at the time really. The real Doctor has something intangible and indefinable. But for me personally Capaldi doesn't have it. whatever it is. Even Smith had more it. I don't think Davidson had it either. But its subjective and personal opinion.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:52 pm

I get nothing but 'it' from Capaldi.

Malick -good to see 12 has 2 in the top ten.
And Moffat takes the top 5 but also shows divisiveness that 3 of the bottom five are from the Moffat era- although only 1 written by Moffat himself.

Also good to see that the majority of episodes rate 7 or above.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:31 pm

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:44 pm

Mmm, this is inteesting. Every series Moffat plays around with some aspect of the Who formula. Well it seems this year its pacing and style he is possibly playing around with.
He has already said that there will be more two parters, but they are done in such a way that the viewer should never be certain if they are watching a single part or a two part. The shouldn't have that traditional two parter-feel where you know its building to the inevitable cliffhanger ready for next week.

Well, now this (in spoilers if you dont want to know episode titles of a two parter)

Spoiler:

by **Amarië** Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:49 pm

I still chuckle when he asks "are you my mummy" Laughing

Capaldi is good in my book. Clara is far better than Amy, but she does everything out of a desperate need for the doctor to pat her head and tell her she's special. She's pining for his love just like the other neWho girl save Donna (oh look what I did there!). I want something new there too, not just Moffat going 'anything RTD did I can do better'.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:59 pm

I don't think she is pinning for his approval- she certainly isn't when she is chucking the TARDIS keys into the lava. Or at end of Listen when she orders him to leave where they are never try to find out where they have been. Or when she calls him out in Mummy for making her lie for him, or when she finally loses it with him at the end of Kill the Moon.
The only time she directly asks for his approval is in Flatline at the end because her ego is getting the better of her, making her feel like she has triumphed even though people are dead- Clara mirrors the Doctor in series 8 and ego getting the better of him is one of his major flaws. That's why he tells her in reply to her demanding he admit she made a good Doctor, that she was an exceptional Doctor, but goodness had nothing to do with it.
I dont think she is seeking his approval, she is seeking what she gave him, acceptance, as an equal being who is to be considered-

DOCTOR: Well, I didn't do it for Courtney. I didn't know what was going to happen. Do you think I'm lying?
(Clara is crying with rage.)
CLARA: I don't know. I don't know. If you didn't do it for her, I mean. Do you know what? It was, it was cheap, it was pathetic. No, no, no. It was patronising. That was you patting us on the back, saying, you're big enough to go to the shops by yourself now. Go on, toddle along.
DOCTOR: No, that was me allowing you to make a choice about your own future. That was me respecting you.
CLARA: Oh, my God, really? Was it? Yeah, well, respected is not how I feel.
DOCTOR: Right. Okay. Er.
CLARA: I nearly didn't press that button. I nearly got it wrong. That was you, my friend, making me scared. Making me feel like a bloody idiot.
DOCTOR: Language.
CLARA: Oh, don't you ever tell me to mind my language. Don't you ever tell me to take the stabilisers off my bike. And don't you dare lump me in with the rest of all the little humans that you think are so tiny and silly and predictable. You walk our Earth, Doctor, you breathe our air. You make us your friend, and that is your moon too. And you can damn well help us when we need it.
DOCTOR: I was helping.
CLARA: What, by clearing off?
DOCTOR: Yes.
CLARA: Yeah, well, clear off! Go on. You can clear off. Get back in your lonely, your lonely bloody Tardis and you don't come back.
DOCTOR: Clara. Clara.
CLARA: You go away. Okay? You go a long way away.

by **Amarië** Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:34 pm

I don't see how that proves me wrong. She's upset he abandoned her, dumped her like it was no big deal to leave her. She doesn't want to be counted among the 'others', she wants him to find her special. I'd say that being counted as an equal to the Doctor would require a rather special human being.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:57 pm

It would if you mean equal in intelligence and powers, but not if you mean equal in respect, in considering their feelings and the effect of his actions on others more.
Its like Capaldi said at the Q&A 10th anniversary thing, when it comes to his seeming coldness, or abrasiveness Clara is helping become a better person at it. And she does that by forcing him to accept her, the arc is a mirror same as the characters are mirroring, at the start he needs her acceptance and that the end she needs his equal acceptance, not by forcing him to pat her on the head and tell her she is great and give her his approval. But by taking her and others into equal consideration in their own right.
Jenna said that one of the reason she stayed was she did not want to leave just when the characters had just reached a point where they had accepted themselves and one another (each is pushed by something to find their limit, the Doctor by his need to rediscover if he actually is doing good or harm and Clara by how far she will go to try to reverse Danny's death) and now that as resolved they could just go off now and have adventures.

Unrelated by I liked this-