Waiting for 'The Battle of the Five Armies' [2]

I think a lot of people are losing interest leelee, unfortunately Jackson did it to them. If he hadn't tried to make up a bunch of OTT nonsense and had stuck to the actual story while keeping the same tone he used with LOTR i think more people would still be interested. LOTR was more realism which felt historical. Jackson treated it like these were real events. With only glimpses of OTT action. Instead with the Hobbit we get unrealistic scenarios which feel hysterical instead. He chose to make the entirety of the films OTT filled with events that could never be realistic. Giving us no real glimpses of realistic action. Not to mention the story he is telling makes no sense. He cuts book stuff they filmed to shove more made up content in that has no real bearing on telling Bilbo's story.

I really think Jackson never really wanted to tell the Hobbit story, he wanted to make up something about Sauron and just masked it by claiming to make the hobbit. We have all seen how his films are not really about Bilbo. He is a secondary character who is shadowed under the Necromancer material, and shadowed well under Thorin's story.

Its no wonder people who love LOTR are losing interest

It should be released as a Halloween movie, I for one am terrified of watching it and I know I will be horrified and scarred. Considering I was practically growling and snarling at the screen when I watched the trailer I feel there's a certain werewolf theme going already.

I havent confirmed this as I dont have the EE yet, but from what I read elsewhere the final stupid dwarf v smaug fight was added and shot at the last minute, and PJ admits when shooting it he didnt know yet what was happening in the scene and just got them to do stuff and react without knowing what too, and that the whole golden statue debacle was an idea proposed by Lee in the middle of filming the green screen stuff and presumably PJ thought it was 'cool' so put it in.

Kind of explains why the films are such a god awful mess really if true.

Now, why am I not surprised.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I havent confirmed this as I dont have the EE yet, but from what I read elsewhere the final stupid dwarf v smaug fight was added and shot at the last minute, and PJ admits when shooting it he didnt know yet what was happening in the scene and just got them to do stuff and react without knowing what too, and that the whole golden statue debacle was an idea proposed by Lee in the middle of filming the green screen stuff and presumably PJ thought it was 'cool' so put it in.

Kind of explains why the films are such a god awful mess really if true.

Not surprised (though in fairness, directing a fight against a 200 foot dragon via greenscreen in a cramped studio at the end of a 18 month shoot probably wasn't the easiest thing to shoot on the Hoof-at least The Battle of Helm's Deep had months worth of footage to choose from!), though when Jackson choreographs fight scenes the results can sometimes be just as er...divisive *Skull Island Dinosaur squashfest*

The collapsing staircase scene in FOTR was also based on a idea by Alan Lee IIRC, whatever you think of the final results, it's pretty cool the art and design crew can work with the director instead of just 'for him'.

http://www.thewrap.com/peter-jacksons-hobbit-trilogy-costs-745-million-so-far/

The collapsing staircase scene in FOTR was also based on a idea by Alan Lee IIRC, whatever you think of the final results, it's pretty cool the art and design crew can work with the director instead of just 'for him'.- Malick

I hate that staircase scene, its bad enough in and of itself as ludicrous pointless spectacle, but its what its replacing that gets me. Between that stupid staircase, the ridiculously long time-wasting troll fight and Gandalf refusing to let go of the ledge, they replaced the Beater of the Drums, Gandalf collapsing the roof of the chamber on it and getting his power drained so he cant even provide light (thus cranking up the tension when the Balrog appears and you know Gandalf is already magically fucked) and the trolls putting the slabs across the chasms of fire so the orcs can pursue them.

Instead PJ choose a stupid bloody troll scene that never ends and gives us our first unwanted and unneeded taste of Legolamb's over the top antics, a collapsing staircase and a dwarf tossing joke and a 'why doesn't someone just pull Gandalf back up?' moment.

Unforgivable I think Lee should have kept his gob shut and stuck to design. At least he is good at that.

Thank you Sinister and the rest, I thought it was just me. I am restless and don't have that feeling I did before when going was such an event and well, whatever. I will go though, it seems silly to spend so many years waiting and going and then just quit.

malickfan wrote:http://www.thewrap.com/peter-jacksons-hobbit-trilogy-costs-745-million-so-far/

Given how shady movie studios usually are about their finances, it's pretty cool that we actually have reliable numbers here. This is almost certainly the most expensive film production ever, but it's also very rare to make three films at once. I think the previous record belonged to POTC 2 and 3, which cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $550 million together.

leelee wrote:Thank you Sinister and the rest, I thought it was just me. I am restless and don't have that feeling I did before when going was such an event and well, whatever. I will go though, it seems silly to spend so many years waiting and going and then just quit.

I'll watch the 3rd and final film in theaters (granted it will be at matinee pricing for 5 bucks)only for the simple fact I started this train wreck years ago and I'm no quiter so I'll torture myself and see it all the way to it's journeys end. The films infuriate me more than anything because I can see what they could have been following the book and appendices material, while keeping the tone and feel of LOTR, WITHOUT adding a ton of made up crappy content or going overboard with CGI. but I guess thats the price you pay when you have a director who would rather see his own made up material on the screen than the source material brought to life. The dwarfs being brought in front of Thranduil being cut to add some made up meeting between Thorin and Thraduil where Thranduils face changes to some burn scar, and about his facing the dragons of the north before, is a prime example of this. Made up stuff over story content. I know it is based on Tolkien's notes but its still a terrible scene IMHO. I don't care about Thranduil's past and it does nothing to move the Hobbit story forward.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The collapsing staircase scene in FOTR was also based on a idea by Alan Lee IIRC, whatever you think of the final results, it's pretty cool the art and design crew can work with the director instead of just 'for him'.- Malick

I hate that staircase scene, its bad enough in and of itself as ludicrous pointless spectacle, but its what its replacing that gets me. Between that stupid staircase, the ridiculously long time-wasting troll fight and Gandalf refusing to let go of the ledge, they replaced the Beater of the Drums, Gandalf collapsing the roof of the chamber on it and getting his power drained so he cant even provide light (thus cranking up the tension when the Balrog appears and you know Gandalf is already magically fucked) and the trolls putting the slabs across the chasms of fire so the orcs can pursue them.

Instead PJ choose a stupid bloody troll scene that never ends and gives us our first unwanted and unneeded taste of Legolamb's over the top antics, a collapsing staircase and a dwarf tossing joke and a 'why doesn't someone just pull Gandalf back up?' moment.

Unforgivable I think Lee should have kept his gob shut and stuck to design. At least he is good at that.

nope. the staircase scene is awesome.

Maybe I'm blanking on something, but I don't think any of the brief biographical notes we have of Thranduil make any mention of him fighting dragons.

probably not him specifically but isn't there mention of the elves fighting them?

Eldorion wrote:Maybe I'm blanking on something, but I don't think any of the brief biographical notes we have of Thranduil make any mention of him fighting dragons.

Maybe they looked at Thingol for inspiration? (though I'm skeptical Jackson is overly familiar with the other books), in the HOTH, Rateliff notes alot of similarities between the two, I haven't read Sil or COH in a while but don't dragons attack Doriath at some point? It was probably just a metaphor/parallel with Thorin for the actors to work off. I'll probably listen to the EE commentary when it comes out and make a note if they mention it

Elthir?

I'm assuming that Jackson is making reference to to "war of wrath" that ended the first age. Possibly trying to make it like Thranduil was a part of that battle. Which is the only way dragons were involved in war as far as I can remember in Middle earth. But if memory serves weren't they battled by the eagles as well?

Sinister71 wrote:I'm assuming that Jackson is making reference to to "war of wrath" that ended the first age. Possibly trying to make it like Thranduil was a part of that battle. Which is the only way dragons were involved in war as far as I can remember in Middle earth. But if memory serves weren't they battled by the eagles as well?

See now I'm picturing bard hopping on an eagle and chasing Smaug through laketown before stabbing him in the eye with the windlance...somehow I don't think it's far off what to expect...

But back to your point, as far as I can recall The Eagles eyries are in and around Gondolin and they don't play and active part in the WOW.

As far as I can recall Thrandypants earliest mention is fighing at the Battle of Dagorlad, his father Oropher being slain in the battle.

malickfan wrote:

Sinister71 wrote:I'm assuming that Jackson is making reference to to "war of wrath" that ended the first age. Possibly trying to make it like Thranduil was a part of that battle. Which is the only way dragons were involved in war as far as I can remember in Middle earth. But if memory serves weren't they battled by the eagles as well?

See now I'm picturing bard hopping on an eagle and chasing Smaug through laketown before stabbing him in the eye with the windlance...somehow I don't think it's far off what to expect...

But back to your point, as far as I can recall The Eagles eyries are in and around Gondolin and they don't play and active part in the WOW.

As far as I can recall Thrandypants earliest mention is fighing at the Battle of Dagorlad, his father Oropher being slain in the battle.

Thorondor is the name of the King of the eagles at that time, I found that while looking through my Tolkien companion book... their eyries near Beleriand were destroyed and they later settled in the misty mountains

Sinister71 wrote:I'm assuming that Jackson is making reference to to "war of wrath" that ended the first age. Possibly trying to make it like Thranduil was a part of that battle. Which is the only way dragons were involved in war as far as I can remember in Middle earth. But if memory serves weren't they battled by the eagles as well?

I don't pretend to know PJ's mind, but I hadn't interpreted the line that way. I can see how it comes across that way, though. I just rewatched the scene on YouTube and Thranduil says that he has "faced the great serpents of the North". I interpreted this as referring to the dragons in the Withered Heath (a valley in the Grey Mountains, north of Mirkwood) who were well-documented in the Appendices, having killed a Dwarf king and been fought with the ancestors of the Rohirrim when they lived in that part of Middle-earth. But an alternative interpretation is that the "North" in this context refers to Morgoth's fortress of Angband, where dragons first emerged from, which was to the north of Beleriand. North represents Morgoth and evil throughout The Silmarillion, so it works here, and dragons of the First Age would probably be more deserving of the descriptor "great".

As for whether or not this could have happened in the context of the books, there's enough grey area for it to be plausible, but it's still a PJ addition (though this would be the case if "north" meant the Grey Mountains, too). We don't know when Thranduil was born. The Woodland Realm in Mirkwood was (probably) founded by his father, Oropher, at some point in the first millennium of the Second Age, although some accounts list Thranduil as the founder. At the very latest, Thranduil became King after the War of the Last Alliance. It's not stated if he was born in Beleriand or elsewhere, to refugees after its destruction.

Eldorion wrote:[I just rewatched the scene on YouTube and Thranduil says that he has "faced the great serpents of the North".  I interpreted this as referring to the dragons in the Withered Heath (a valley in the Grey Mountains, north of Mirkwood) who were well-documented in the Appendices, having killed a Dwarf king and been fought with the ancestors of the Rohirrim when they lived in that part of Middle-earth.  

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

Either is possible, I guess. Though neither makes much sense. Seems one of those spur of the moment, great idea there and then, Peter Jackson things really.. At least this one doesn't seem to create any plot paradoxes.

Sinister71 wrote:

leelee wrote:Thank you Sinister and the rest, I thought it was just me. I am restless and don't have that feeling I did before when going was such an event and well, whatever. I will go though, it seems silly to spend so many years waiting and going and then just quit.

I'll watch the 3rd and final film in theaters (granted it will be at matinee pricing for 5 bucks)only for the simple fact I started this train wreck years ago and I'm no quiter so I'll torture myself and see it all the way to it's journeys end. The films infuriate me more than anything because I can see what they could have been following the book and appendices material, while keeping the tone and feel of LOTR, WITHOUT adding a ton of made up crappy content or going overboard with CGI. but I guess thats the price you pay when you have a director who would rather see his own made up material on the screen than the source material brought to life. The dwarfs being brought in front of Thranduil being cut to add some made up meeting between Thorin and Thraduil where Thranduils face changes to some burn scar, and about his facing the dragons of the north before, is a prime example of this. Made up stuff over story content. I know it is based on Tolkien's notes but its still a terrible scene IMHO. I don't care about Thranduil's past and it does nothing to move the Hobbit story forward.

You and Petty and the gang don't fancy making a Tolkien movie do you. I have some money saved up There must be someone to whom a few hundred million would be a yawn. What you could do, it gives me the shivers.

Is that Dain ?

I just rewatched the scene on YouTube and Thranduil says that he has "faced the great serpents of the North". I interpreted this as referring to the dragons in the Withered Heath (a valley in the Grey Mountains, north of Mirkwood) who were well-documented in the Appendices,...

I just watched this section -- first time -- last night. Now I've seen the whole, erm... 'film' I guess they call it these days. In my day we used to call these things video games, but you kids will have your own nomenclature.

Anyway yes that's how I took this remark along with its face melting 'horror moment' too Eldo. After all, I'm sure someone on Jackson's team has read Tolkien's 'Hobbit notes'... cough I mean Appendices, by now.

I won't even comment on one of the worst lines even Peter Jackson chose to dream up for 'Kili' to say to an invented She-elf, or the extreme silliness, in my opinion, of the 'barrel riding fight'... except to say: what? arrg! major groans.

We don't know when Thranduil was born. The Woodland Realm in Mirkwood was (probably) founded by his father, Oropher, at some point in the first millennium of the Second Age, although some accounts list Thranduil as the founder.

Yes, for myself I think Appendix B 'strongly suggests' (at least) that Thranduil founded a realm in Mirkwood fairly early in the Second Age. Oropher who? No doubt Tolkien injected Oropher into the mix in a couple of late (I think they are late) texts... but even these seem to contradict each other at points in my opinion.

Appendix B: '... but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forest far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Geenwood the Great, was one of these.'

Okay, that might leave room for it being really Oropher who founded a realm, and much later Thranduil his son 'eventually' established the specific realm that readers know from The Hobbit...

... but still    

And Legolas does say (after explaining that the Galadhrim dwell in trees): 'The people of the woods did not delve in the ground like Dwarves, nor build strong places of stone before the Shadow came.' And here I would say the Elf is generalizing, considering the description of Lothlorien I think he must be including his own people 'delving' into the ground, which then could suggest that Thranduil's fortress was a later addition in any case.

But still (wait I already said that) I think Thranduil could have founded a realm, then added to it when Greenwood started getting mirky. Again, Tolkien might have considered that Appendix B was very contracted history and he could this 'tinker' with the arguable suggestion there...

... or he may have just forgotten what he wrote and published! Hmm.

Anyway... you really already said it all... I just had to pop in and act loremasterish for appearances

chris63 wrote:Is that Dain ?

Looks like Oin to me

Elthir wrote:Anyway... you really already said it all... I just had to pop in and act loremasterish for appearances

This forum would be a poorer place without you trying to keep up appearances.

I haven't gotten to the Galadriel and Celeborn appendices in my recent re-read of UT, so I'm kind of running on memory when it comes to the history of the Woodland Realm.  I do often give credence statements in TS and UT when trying to construct a coherent history, except in cases where (I'm aware that) Christopher later was like "maybe that wasn't such a good idea", but I recognize that this is a fairly arbitrary decision on my part.  I consider the Appendix B statement to be the most damning to the existence of Oropher, though.

Thanks Eldo! I am getting sloppy though.

Elthir wrote: Thranduil, king in the north of Geenwood the Great, was one of these.'

Okay it's another typo but still. I guess I should give Oropher more consideration and try to quell my obsession with weighting author-published text.

Plus, for the second edition Tolkien changed Celeborn establishing his realm (at this early date seemingly) in the south of the forest, meaning for roughly ten years readers would simply assume Thranduil established his realm in the north of Mirkwood, Celeborn in the South.

But Tolkien removes Celeborn from this statement in the 1960s, and has him go to Eregion with Galadriel rather (RGEO 1967). Okay he published that change so I accept it, and then I mentally plug in Amdir for Celeborn... 'cause how (and when) does Amdir get over the Mountains of Mist and end up in the realm of Lorien (so Amroth can also end up there, to be replaced by Galadriel and Celeborn later)?

And I just realized, right now, it doesn't make much sense to believe in Amdir but not Oropher! I mean I'm already doing the gymnastics! So it must be A) the conflicting tales of Oropher [I can't tell which came after the other], and B) the suggestion that Thranduil established the realm from Appendix B...

... 'cause at least Tolkien writes Thranduil was 'one of these'... leaving room for Amdir... as another one of these!

LOL!

It was much easier chatting about this in 1956. Although not for me 'cause I wasn't born yet and the 'net' was something to catch fish (or hair) with, or people on high wires and so on.

Okay, pointless ramble over.