Re: Sherlock - BBC [4]

by Bluebottle Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:12 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:I find that an interesting thought certainly. But, to go into specifics. I would be interested to hear what parts exactly would you guys would put down as tumblr pandering?

All the "fans" in the first episode with their theories about how Sherlock survived and most of the crap in the wedding episode.

Yeah, the fan thing was a bit.. self referential. Though I guess a character like SH might very well have tunred into a cult figure, a celebrity, in reality too if he existed in the modern age of the internet. But that felt very much like they were playing for the fans.

Odd thing is Moffat does just that in DW too, playing the Doctor up as a, world and universe wide, celebrity where it makes even less sense.

And the wedding stuff did become very.. I think, as I said earlier that they were kind of building up to the Mary reveal. And they hoped that would catch a lot of people out. The amount of it there was though. I think it hurt the second episode. I think some of the exploration of Sherlock and John's realtionship was interesting. And it's not beyond comprehension that a character that doesn't drink and is very in control of his emotions might very well loose some inhibitions and give us a look into what he really feels under the influence of alcohol. As in the bachelor party bit. In the end. Some of it is was good, like the bachelor party, but a lot of it turned mawkish.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:31 pm

It's an evolving story, with the climax at the end of the season. - Blue

Id agree with that.
Moffat does this- he doesn't just like to play with narrative he also likes to play with structure, the format itself.
On Who series 5 was standard NuWho.
Series 6 he put a six month gap in the middle of and a mid season cliffhanger.
Series 7 was 'a blockbuster a week' each episode a Who take on a genre piece.
But he also narrative wise split it in two with a big full stop in the middle with Ponds leaving. Bringing a new companion in, and he had the series scheduled to run right through xmas and new year to intro the new companion in the middle of the series, the big xmas special.
He has form here.

'Odd thing is Moffat does just that in DW too, playing the Doctor up as a, world and universe wide, celebrity where it makes even less sense.'

This I completely disagree with. It was RTD built him up as the Oncoming Storm and all that, and everyone knowing his name and who he was as a legend throughout the universe.
Moffat deliberately tore that down- end of series 5 his big speech at Stonehenge and everyone runs away at the mention of his name, only they don't its a trap and his own ego means he cant even see hes in it.
Demons Run- Rivers entire speech. He just turned an army around using only the psychological effect of the fear his name induced in his enemy, to the point where the army he had assembled to take the base never had to fire a single shot.

I dont understand how anyone can say its Moffat who made him 'the legend throughout the universe' (Rose) when he has done so much to address the problem RTD created with that.

by Bluebottle Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:52 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I dont understand how anyone can say its Moffat who made him 'the legend throughout the universe' (Rose) when he has done so much to address the problem RTD created with that.

I never did. I said "Moffat does". RTD started it, sure. And took it to an extreme as far as earth bound stories were concerned. But, come on. The Pandorica Opens *cough* The Big Bang *cough* Those two stories basically cements the Doctor as a Universe wide celebrity.

Has he been tearing that down?

Well, I do hope he never uses his name to scare away his enemies again. The Pandorica Opens *cough* Nor holds off the combined armies of the Universe for a 1000 years again. *cough* The Time of the Doctor *cough*

Honestly I do, Petty. It's my least favourite part of the program.

I do not hate everything about it. Wink

by Bluebottle Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:56 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:It's an evolving story, with the climax at the end of the season. - Blue

Id agree with that.
Moffat does this- he doesn't just like to play with narrative he also likes to play with structure, the format itself.
On Who series 5 was standard NuWho.
Series 6 he put a six month gap in the middle of and a mid season cliffhanger.
Series 7 was 'a blockbuster a week' each episode a Who take on a genre piece.
But he also narrative wise split it in two with a big full stop in the middle with Ponds leaving. Bringing a new companion in, and he had the series scheduled to run right through xmas and new year to intro the new companion in the middle of the series, the big xmas special.
He has form here.

Yeah, I think it helps seeing the series as a whole. It still has issues despite that sure, and it doesn't help when watching either of the two first episodes on their own. But it does help you understand what the writers was trying to do. Whether you agree with it or not.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:00 pm

The Pandorica Opens *cough* The Big Bang *cough* Those two stories basically cements the Doctor as a Universe wide celebrity.

No it doesnt. Know one does what he did after words. And the whole point of the big speech is his enemies were feigning retreat- he is in their trap and his own ego and celebrity has completely blinded him to it- thats the whole point, in the end he accepts saving everything at the expense of ever having existed- how bigger a metaphor for accepting his own ego than going willingly to his and its own destruction?- its meant to be hugely epic because it revealed to have been utterly hollow and the reason it all goes wrong in the first place- the reason he cant stop the explosion is is he is not on the TARDIS and he is not their because of his own ego.

'Nor holds off the combined armies of the Universe for a 1000 years again. *cough* The Time of the Doctor *cough*'

He doesnt. The Papal Mainframe and the Church do- the largest military and peace keeping force of the time. The Doctor only defends it against the few who get through the Church defences.
The actual big battle only happens right at the end, after the Papal Mainframe has fallen to the Daleks.

by Bluebottle Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:13 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:No it doesnt. Know one does what he did after words. And the whole point of the big speech is his enemies were feigning retreat- he is in their trap and his own ego and celebrity has completely blinded him to it- thats the whole point, in the end he accepts saving everything at the expense of ever having existed- how bigger a metaphor for accepting his own ego than going willingly to his and its own destruction?- its meant to be hugely epic because it revealed to have been utterly hollow and the reason it all goes wrong in the first place- the reason he cant stop the explosion is is he is not on the TARDIS and he is not their because of his own ego.

What happens after the words, what the result was, isn't very important to me. He basically thought shouting "I'm the Doctor, the most powerful beeing in the Universe and have defeated you before." would serve a purpose. I'm really not interested in that aspect of his character.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:He doesnt. The Papal Mainframe and the Church do- the largest military and peace keeping force of the time. The Doctor only defends it against the few who get through the Church defences.
The actual big battle only happens right at the end, after the Papal Mainframe has fallen to the Daleks.

It still makes him an agressor. An agressive party in what is basically a war. It makes him a soldier. Which is the last thing the Doctor should ever be.. And yes, he defeated a whole lot of combat focused enemies in an all out war scenario..

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:34 pm

What happens after the words, what the result was, isn't very important to me. He basically thought shouting "I'm the Doctor, the most powerful beeing in the Universe and have defeated you before." would serve a purpose. I'm really not interested in that aspect of his character.- Blue

But you seem to be missing th epoint. Moffat is telling a story which begins an arc culminating at Demons Run in which he realises he has got too big, too well known, to much of a reputation.
For the narrative as a writer you cant start that arc without first demonstrating just what it is your going to demolish- the big speech is that moment.
He thinks he is doing what he did all through the RTD years, grandstanding saying things like -"I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord. I'm from the planet Gallifrey in the Constellation of Kasterborous. I'm 903 years old and I'm the man who is gonna save your lives and all 6 billion people on the planet below."
He does it all the time as 10. Moffat gave him a final big glorious piece of grandstanding and even got to film it at the real stonehenge. And it was all fake, they all knew they had him already in the trap. His final big grandstand was a sham and he didnt know it. Thats the whole point.

'It makes him a soldier. Which is the last thing the Doctor should ever be'

Which is why as 12 he hates soldiers so much. even though he had no choice in the matter as 11.
If he left the Church and everyone else would lay the planet waste and the Doctor couldn't let that happen to its people. If he says his name the Time Lords reappear with the combined forces of the worst things in the universe already amassed and the Time War starts all over again.
He doesn't fight out of choice as he does in the Time War, he fights becuase there is no other choice that will protect the people. And because he knows this is it, his final regen. If he is going to die he is going to out doing what he has always done, protecting innocent people from harm. And that is very much the Doctor.

by malickfan Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:00 pm

I kinda see where Blue was coming from, if the Doctor is made out to be a legend/warrior/the oncoming storm, you loose some of the mystery and character growth, once you go large and epic, its that much harder to tone things down again, the Classic series seemed happy enough to make the Doctor a mysterious wanderer, the 11th Doctor rebooted the universe and outlived all his other incarnations in centuries long war, I really did feel at times Moffat wanted to make his Doctor the 'Ultimate'...

As for Sherlock, still haven't watched series 3, this thread isn't filling me with confidence.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:24 pm

if the Doctor is made out to be a legend/warrior/the oncoming storm, you loose some of the mystery and character growth, once you go large and epic, its that much harder to tone things down again- Malick

But that wasn't Moffat that ws RTD- its what Moffat was knocking down because it was a problem. Series 5 to 7 is about that for the Doctor. Amy is the first folly. He screws up her life. Pandorica is the next folly. Then Demons Run. Then losing Amy and Rory.
The entire Doctor trilogy leading into the end of series 7 is directly asking the question Doctor who?
Moffat has stated he desired to put the mystery back into the character, the sense of not being 100% sure what he was going to do next.
And then he gave us that in 12. But the preparation all builds up to that.

In the past some new teams when they took over just ignored stuff that had gone before or flat out contradicted it. Moffat doesnt like to do that, if the Doctor is to go from Oncoming Storm and legend of RTD era it has to have a story. Moffat doesn't like to pretend it just didnt happen. Its not his style, he likes to joint the dots.

by Mrs Figg Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:28 pm

Smiths grandstanding didn't work for me, it made him look like a pompous ass. when Tennant did it I felt he could get away with it, because his flip side was more genuine and based on respect for humanity and his assistants. I thought Smiths Doctor was a bit of a manipulative egotist underneath.

by Bluebottle Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:52 pm

See Nora. This is what happens when you go off. The Sherlock thread ends up being about House of Cards and Doctor Who. Sad

by Eldorion Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:03 am

Get this Doctor Who stuff outta here! Mad

Bluebottle wrote:I'd say, though i have said it before, that the two first episodes suffered as stand alone episodes because they had a lot of their running time taken up by story considerations. Epsiode one handled the aftermath of Reichenbach, episode two had a lot of it's running time taken up by the wedding. Episode three on the other hand was more self contained. Season three as such was more a full arch, and you must see the three episodes more as one than in previous seasons. It's an evolving story, with the climax at the end of the season.

Now that doesn't mean you have to think organizing the season and story like that was a good idea, or that you likede the story in itself. Just that it was different in some ways to previous seasons in other respects than quality.

I get what you mean, but I'm not sure I agree. S3E2 is all about the wedding; the mystery was just one part of that. The problem was that neither the mystery nor the rest of the wedding stuff were very interesting or (IMO, of course) all that well-written. I appreciate that S3E1 needed more time to deal with the Reichenbach and that sweeping it aside like they had with the S1 cliffhanger wouldn't necessarily have worked a second time. However, since Moffat et al didn't want to give a clear answer for how Sherlock faked his death, they could have avoided spending so much time on that issue. But instead they dragged it out in the most grating and patronizing way possible.

by Bluebottle Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:10 am

I guess that's a fair point and I do kind of agree. Whether or not the actual season 3 focused part/self contained part of the episodes themselves were any good is certainly up for debate. Although..

Eldorion wrote:S3E2 is all about the wedding; the mystery was just one part of that. The problem was that neither the mystery nor the rest of the wedding stuff were very interesting or (IMO, of course) all that well-written.

the epsiode 2 "mystery" was actually the only "mystery" of the whole season.

Eldorion wrote:I appreciate that S3E1 needed more time to deal with the Reichenbach and that sweeping it aside like they had with the S1 cliffhanger wouldn't necessarily have worked a second time. However, since Moffat et al didn't want to give a clear answer for how Sherlock faked his death, they could have avoided spending so much time on that issue. But instead they dragged it out in the most grating and patronizing way possible.

And I liked that one of the solutions suggested and left open were Sherlock and Moriarty kissing, having concocted the whole thing together. Razz

(Though I guess that was kind of fan servicy too. Sofa

)

by Mrs Figg Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:01 pm

I liked Mary as a character but the whole wedding/threesome thing was very boring. I want it to be about John and Sherlock together, two blokes detecting stuff.

by Bluebottle Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:09 pm

Eldorion wrote:Get this Doctor Who stuff outta here!

Just saying. bounce

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Best Norcer

Blue
Norc
Eldo
Bungo
Azreil
Ringdrotten
David

by Bluebottle Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:09 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I liked Mary as a character but the whole wedding/threesome thing was very boring. I want it to be about John and Sherlock together, two blokes detecting stuff.

I must have missed that part. Shocked

by Bluebottle Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:05 pm

I do get what you're saying though, Figgs. Mary's introduction skewed Sherlock and John's realtionship and put things in a way that I'm not sure will work long term. It will be interesting to see how they handle that.

by Mrs Figg Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:25 pm

I don't think cozy domesticated relationships work in Sherlock, either they thought it would be cute, or they are setting her up to get killed which I wouldn't put past Moffat.

by halfwise Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:32 pm

Doyle himself let Mary just fade away. Just didn't belong.

by David H Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:46 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I liked Mary as a character but the whole wedding/threesome thing was very boring. I want it to be about John and Sherlock together, two blokes detecting stuff.

by Bluebottle Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:51 pm

I think they made things so mawkish at least partly to set up the..

Spoiler:

It wasn't as mawkish in the aftermath of that. But, yeah, Mary does alleviate a lot of the dysfunctionality in John and Sherlocks relationship and makes it a lot less intersting of a dynamic. Shrugging

by Bluebottle Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:59 pm

I was thinking I should rewatch season 3 at some point, but with all the negativety.. I'm a bit hesitant. I didn't really mind them first time around, and what if I do now.

Ah, well. Perhaps I'll do it anyway. Razz

by Mrs Figg Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:33 pm

Moffat did a PJ putting female energy into an original story about men. It just doesn't work. specially if you make the females in question knife wielding psychokillers. Rolling Eyes

by Bluebottle Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:28 pm

And put her into a love triangle.. Sofa

by Bluebottle Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:39 pm

"I […] embodied [our first case] in a small brochure, with the somewhat fantastic title of ‘A Study in Scarlet.’”
[Holmes] shook his head sadly.
“I glanced over it,” said he. “Honestly, I cannot congratulate you upon it. Detection is, or ought to be, an exact science and should be treated in the same cold and unemotional manner. You have attempted to tinge it with romanticism, which produces much the same effect as if you worked a love-story or an elopement into the fifth proposition of Euclid.”
“But the romance was there,” I remonstrated. “I could not tamper with the facts.”
“Some facts should be suppressed, or, at least, a just sense of proportion should be observed in treating them. The only point in the case which deserved mention was the curious analytical reasoning from effects to causes, by which I succeeded in unravelling it”.

- Arthur Conan Doyle, The Sign of Four