A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

My problems with the show aren’t like, “oh I don’t like how this plot is unfolding.” It’s more like, there’s no internal logic, characterizations change with the wind, it’s thematically simplistic and full of overused tropes that its source works hard to avoid, it’s sexist and worse it’s sexist in a way that creates a space for apologists, and of course, it’s not even an adaptation at this point: it’s fanfiction that profits from the creative work Martin’s done and hides behind things like “well this is his world” as an excuse for its problematic narrative.

“The books reflect a patriarchal society based on the Middle Ages. The Middle Ages were not a time of sexual egalitarianism. It was very classist, dividing people into three classes. And they had strong ideas about the roles of women. One of the charges against Joan of Arc that got her burned at the stake was that she wore men’s clothing—that was not a small thing. There were, of course, some strong and competent women. It still doesn’t change the nature of the society. And if you look at the books, my heroes and viewpoint characters are all misfits. They’re outliers. They don’t fit the roles society has for them. They’re ‘cripples, bastards, and broken things‘—a dwarf, a fat guy who can’t fight, a bastard, and women who don’t fit comfortably into the roles society has for them (though there are also those who do—like Sansa and Catelyn).

“Now there are people who will say to that, ‘Well, he’s not writing history, he’s writing fantasy—he put in dragons, he should have made an egalitarian society.’ Just because you put in dragons doesn’t mean you can put in anything you want. If pigs could fly, then that’s your book. But that doesn’t mean you also want people walking on their hands instead of their feet. If you’re going to do [a fantasy element], it’s best to only do one of them, or a few. I wanted my books to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like, and I was also reacting to a lot of fantasy fiction. Most stories depict what I call the ‘Disneyland Middle Ages’—there are princes and princesses and knights in shining armor, but they didn’t want to show what those societies meant and how they functioned.

“I have millions of women readers who love the books, who come up to me and tell me they love the female characters. Some love Arya, some love Dany, some love Sansa, some love Brienne, some love Cersei—there’s thousands of women who love Cersei despite her obvious flaws. It’s a complicated argument. To be non-sexist, does that mean you need to portray an egalitarian society? That’s not in our history; it’s something for science fiction. And 21st century America isn’t egalitarian, either. There are still barriers against women. It’s better than what it was. It’s not Mad Men any more, which was in my lifetime.

“And then there’s the whole issue of sexual violence, which I’ve been criticized for as well. I’m writing about war, which what almost all epic fantasy is about. But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that. Rape, unfortunately, is still a part of war today. It’s not a strong testament to the human race, but I don’t think we should pretend it doesn’t exist.

“I want to portray struggle. Drama comes out of conflict. If you portray a utopia, then you probably wrote a pretty boring book.”

Bluebottle wrote:I'll just post this here, as I thought it rather silly.

“She was a guy originally, and then somewhere in the process we thought it might be cool if she were a mother, and show her sending off her own kids to make that moment with the corpse children really resonate emotionally,” Sapochnik explained.

Episode 5x03 of Game of Thrones finally let me put into words something that has been on the edge of my mind for a while: it is an unforgivably sexist show.

“But wait, shouldn’t this have been fairly obvious from the get-go?” you ask. “There’s always been nudity, violence against women, and girls being sold like cattle? In fact, the world of Westeros is just horribly misogynistic!”

Yes, the world in which Martin set his A Song of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF) is a terribly sexist one. But George R.R. Martin is not sexist. The books are not sexist. The show…is. And here’s why: where Martin actively forces the reader to address the problematic treatment of women in his series head-on as an overarching theme, showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss (D&D) actively incorporate sexist tropes and demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the source material.

“You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in.”

“Okay, so two episodes later, there’s no arguing Sansa’s playing a “major part.” She is on our screen a lot, reminding us of her suffering and lack of agency. With the most recent episode, she said goodbye to her empathy as well–the one trait of hers they had barely managed to keep. I’ve talked about the countless ways in which this entire arc was sexist and problematic, as well as being devoid of any internal logic. I’m not trying to revisit this aspect of it (though believe me, that criticism should never be forgotten, not for one second).

No, what I’d like to revisit is the bolded from the above quotes. Sansa servicing Theon and Ramsay’s storyline is clearly an issue in and of itself. But what the hell do they think Theon and Ramsay’s storyline is?

Here’s the very bare bones of the Winterfell plotline in ADWD:

   The North is still quite upset with the Boltons. Lords are clearly unhappy about swearing their allegiance and Roose is concerned given that Stannis is trying to gain support in the North for himself.
   To sure up their allies, Roose has Ramsay marry a girl they pretend is Arya Stark, despite everyone knowing it’s not her. This is able to happen because it is of no cost to Littlefinger and Roose alike. Many Northern Lords and Freys come and stay at Winterfell during this event. It’s tense as all hell.
   Theon gives away the bride to increase the legitimacy of the sham wedding
   Ramsay rapes his wife
   Theon is raped in the same scene
   Theon converses with several key players in the North, including Lady Dustin, who contextualizes much of the tensions in the region, as well as provides key insight to the Starks.
   Men begin getting mysteriously murdered at Winterfell. The Lords are snowbound inside. Tensions bubble over because there are three missing Freys that people suspect were murdered by the Northern Lord Wyman Manderly.
   Tensions finally erupt into a brawl
   Theon flees to the Godswood where he thinks the tree whispers his name. That, along with Ramsay’s sexual abuse of both Theon and “Arya,” the way no Nothern Lords give a shit abut her obvious suffering, and the tensions breaking out cause Theon to have flashes of clarity

I’ll leave it off there, because it seems to be around where we are in 5x08. Here’s what Benioff and Weiss decided to keep in from that list:

   A random old lady is The North is still quite upset with the Boltons. Lords are clearly One Lord is mentioned as being unhappy about swearing their allegiance and Roose is concerned given that Stannis is trying to gain support in the North for himself.
   Theon gives away the bride to increase the legitimacy of the sham wedding
   Ramsay rapes his wife

Okay. So. They loved this subplot in the books. What is it that they liked, exactly? I mean, Ramsay offering to go kill Stannis with 20 dudes doesn’t even happen, so clearly they can’t resist “improving” the little that they left in. The only thing from the books that Benioff and Weiss left untouched was:

   Ramsay rapes his wife

That. That is the plot point they were desperate to include. That is the plot point they felt they could not do without. That is the one plot point in Winterfell that was “unchanged.” This is their understanding of the books.

Pretty telling, no?

Yes, of course, Benioff and Weiss don’t know how to deal with rape in a meaningful manner. But they don’t know how to deal with anything in a meaningful manner either. —

Miodrag Zarković

Now, I’m not saying that D&D’s depiction is endorsement, by the way. But I am saying their depiction is without thought, and without an overarching narrative purpose. It objectifies women and reduces them to silent sufferers of abuse for the sake of shock value. And given that Martin specifically goes out of his way to address instances of violence against women that could easily be dismissed (in fact, I’d argue he doesn’t present them unless there’s an obvious narrative reason), it’s just irresponsible on the part of D&D to be so dismissive themselves. The audience is encouraged to become spectators to tragedy, and the women are reduced to nothing more than their abuse.

“You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in.”

Season 1, Episode 9 wrote: A girl who was almost raped doesn't invite another man into her bed two hours later.

That tale she had from Justin Massey, who was less devout than most. “A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire,” Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, “The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R’hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever.”

“Half my army is made up of unbelievers,” Stannis had replied. “I will have no burnings. Pray harder.”

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."
The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "
" — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."
Ser Justin put one hand on his sword hilt. "On my honor as a knight, you have my word."

Eldorion wrote:If I were inclined to give them the benefit of a doubt I'd say that line was there to establish Mace as a buffoon who doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Eldorion wrote:But it more likely comes from the same place as "Isildur, the last king of Gondor" and "a thousand years this city has stood" in PJ's LOTR.  Though the difference there is a case can be made for PJ's changes making Gondor easier to explain to an audience (not entirely sure I'd agree), whereas changing the regnal numbers has no such impact.