A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

I'm worried that Hardhome is gonna be a repeat of the Battle of the Wall last season. A minor skirmish that gets blown up into a climactic battle out of a misplaced sense of obligation about doing large action scenes, which ends up choking out the actual story. At least they aren't devoting an entire episode to the battle this year.

Yeah, and that that was what they decided to throw money at this season. 18 day shoot, probably tons of cgi, hundreds of extras, the massive set they constructed, etc.

I can't help but question their priorities.

I don't question their priorities; I think they've made those quite clear by now.

Yeah, flashy/cool scenes, big action set pieces, sexposition, "How can we make this moment as out of the blue and shocking as possible?", "The appeal of this series is that anyone can die!"..

Shame they don't have that kind of fixation with coherent storytelling and characterization, or, you know, adapting the subject matter..

I think they are doing a great job.

I mean the show still has good production values, music, and (for the most part) acting.  But I think the seams in the plot are really starting to show due to the lack of thinking ahead, and the sloppy characterization makes it hard to stay invested in the individual stories.  But the show is not flat-out unenjoyable or I wouldn't be watching it anymore.  It's just disappointing because it could have been something truly great (and was even just a season or two ago).

Some of it is probably down to the it lacking the breadth and quality of the subject matter, but to be honest this season as it's own entity is struggling massively with things that are at least important to me, like coherent storytelling and characterization, and there has been some questionable creative choices that at least to me display a lack of understanding of their craft, at best, or some very questionable opinions, at worst.

More than anything they have by the mish mash they've made of the two books they are adapting for this season managed to both rush thourgh the story, while making every scene feel dragged out, as it's devoid of the wider meaning, impact and content it had in the orginal telling of the story. A lot of hitting plot points almost schematicly after wildly changing the characters and their motivations doesn't help either.

I'm still hesitant to blame D&D for all of the pacing issues with this season. I don't know that there was any good solution to adapting AFFC and ADWD. Probably the best move from a pacing perspective would be to combine the two books but let them take two seasons (including the climactic chapters that got moved to TWOW). However, that would still leave the problem of how to end season five since there's very little that could serve as a climax. So I understand why they wanted to cover both books in a single season, even with all the complications that poses.

I'm sure they could find something for a climax. They are professionals. I mean, I know the tedium of books 4 and 5 are a tedium, but I don't think they would have much trouble tweaking someone's plot enough to create a climactic ending for the season. Season three or four or whatever it was ended with a monologue of Littlefinger's didn't it? Jon and Ygrette up on top of the wall, all that shebang.

I recall the episode you're referring to, but I think that was a mid-season episode.  Season three had the Red Wedding as its big "episode nine moment", which together with the fallout from that event presented a climax.  And the Red Wedding is conveniently located about halfway through A Storm of Swords, so it's like a ready-mate splitting point.

You are definitely right that they could (and arguably should) have used their initiative as writers to craft a more proactive solution to the books four and five dilemma. That was actually what I was expecting before this season began. But so far the overall shape and direction of the narrative hasn't really changed from the books; they just sort of push fast-forward at times. (Some of the specifics of individual plotlines, on the other hand, have changed quite a bit.) That said, given how season five has played out, I'm not sure how much trust I'd put in D&D anymore to make changes to the foundational story structure.

Oh, I completely agree that adapting aFfCs and aDwDs was always going to be a less thankful task than the previosu books that lent themselves more to adaptation. There was always going to have to be changes and streamlining, particularily when pressed into one season, and I thnk most book readers in general, like yourself, were ready to grant them a fair amount of leeway in that task. I might have a slightly more favourable view of those books than many do, but I would also agree with that too.

Still, one can't really judge them on anyhting but the result achieved. And to me all they have managed is to present a lesser pooreer version of the story of the books. And by the wayside,in the rush to get through the story, has gone coherent characterization and storytelling. Rushing through the plot while loosing all of it's impact, ticking plot point boxes, while changing all the circumstances surrounding them. These are problems the books doesn't share.

If you by adapting something that has certain inherent problems to fit the medium of television only introduce new problems while retaining the old.. you're really not achieving your purpose.

I'm not sure about the two season thing, although it's an intriging idea. Wouldn't that play rather into the problem a lot of people saw in the books? Too little plot stretched out over too many pages?

I do think it gets at the real problem of the season though, they have to a large degree retained the larger plot of the books, but the meaning behind the plot, behind the things that happen have been lost. The things in the books you enjoy, the things that invested you in the characters (that was a large reason that the books were written the way they were written, I think), were left by the wayside. As such we get Tyrion travelling across Essos in record time, while nothing that in any way really impacts him happens. I had given up on life, he said to Daenerys, but there was no hint of that in the story. He was depressed and drinking because he killed his cheating ex-girfriend (in self defense) and his father. Nothing happened to make him introspected, and face up to things about himself he would rather have avoided. Even the part about being taken as a slave was brushed aside, leaving no impact.

These are the parts of the story in the books they needed to retain, whether doing one season or two, and those are the parts they lost by the way they decided to adapt the story. Because without that part, the plot itself looses it's value. Which is kind of why it feels like they said, "Let's just get through this part as quickly as possible, and back to the action." Forgetting that that would elave the viewer with a season devoid of meaning, except for people moving from a to b. And forgetting that this part is the reason we'll be invested in the story when the action returns. The reason we'll be invested in these characters in the endgame.

And, yes. I'm already at the post-mortem stage.

maybe people enjoy the tv show more if they haven't read the books? I haven't but I thought the start to this season was duller than even season 1. But its certainly improved in the last two episodes. As a non book reader it seems nearly seamless as far as characterisation goes. The only dodgy part is the Dark Sansa suddenly forgotten thingie.

I think there's definitely somehting to that. And I think it does skew your perspective, which is why hearing your opinion on it is always interesting. Honestly though, a lot of my gripes with this season has little to do with the book story.

I think as we come to the end of this season there are actually going to be some moments of emmotional impact might win some people back from the large dip in quality I think we all can agree the early part of this season represented. Will those moments feel unearned and clumsy, even heavy handed, I think so, but if they capture the momentary emmotion from those scenes in the books, those are some great scenes. And if the quality picks up again next season, I said very early on that I was ready to treat this as their "Headlong rush through aFfCs and aDwDs" season. Although I do not look forward to the continuation if the quality of the show remains at it's current level, and I think most signs show that when they are doing original writing, the quality of the show suffers. And there will be more original writing next year.  

I think we are seeing signs that things are falling appart, that to tell this story in 7 season was a mistake, that this show will not be all that well remembered in hindsight. That doesn't preclude it from being a fun throwaway thing in the moment. I just have to reiterate what Eldo said above, it could have been so much more. And it deifnitely feels like a missed opprtunity at making something really special.

They were still finding their feet in season one, but I honestly do think that seasons two and three (as well as parts of four) were great television and among the best epic fantasy ever made for the screen.  There were the OMG moments, but the plot was well-told and the cast was still relatively small enough (lol) that they could give meaningful screentime to almost everyone, and character motivations hadn't drifted beyond recognition.  I don't think it's a coincidence that D&D have said that when they started working on the show, they weren't looking far beyond the Red Wedding.

I don't want to speculate too much about the structural decisions they've made in this season until we see how it ends, so I'm going to hold off on any major speculation for the moment,  But I don't think it bodes well for the rest of the show. Seven seasons definitely isn't enough at the pace their going. At least GRRM admits that he might change the seven book idea, because the idea that he can still make that work is laughable.

I don't think the idea that he can wrap things up in two books is laughable, just a bit implausible given his tendency to stretch things out as the series goes on.

This suggests that he still plans on 7 books: http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/12/george-r-r-martin-still-planning-seven-book-series/

I think its unfeasible that such a talented and dedicated team would suddenly lose the plot in one year, so they may have been struggling with the crazy complexity of unfinished books. I don't blame the books or D&D for the drop off early on in this season, maybe it seemed slow after all the high drama we have been used to. maybe people are so used to having wow moments that the lack of them made things seem boring, but as I said before as a non book reader, the season seems to be heading back on track nicely. I really enjoy it and that's all that matters to me as entertainment.

halfwise wrote:I don't think the idea that he can wrap things up in two books is laughable, just a bit implausible given his tendency to stretch things out as the series goes on.

This suggests that he still plans on 7 books: http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/12/george-r-r-martin-still-planning-seven-book-series/

I mean, he also planned on finishing ADWD a year after AFFC, and thought it plausible that the show would take four seasons to get through Feast/Dance and/or would take a hiatus and do a Robert's Rebellion miniseries in order to give him time to catch up.  The dude's public statements about his writing are not exactly clear-minded.

Keep in mind that ASOIAF was originally going to be a trilogy, and then five books, and then six books ... and each time GRRM denied that he would expand the number of volumes again, until he did just that.  The first three published books cover roughly the first volume from when GRRM was outlining the then-trilogy back in the early '90s.  Feast/Dance introduce a shitload of new plots and characters, which is typically what you see in middle acts, and is only hinting at what the endgame might be.  The invasions of Dany and the Others are going to be massive events, probably dwarfing the War of the Five Kings, and they're not going to start until well into the sixth book at the very earliest.  The War of the Five Kings took more than two full volumes.  Or look at it in terms of seasons.  Even if you count Feast/Dance as one, fall covered three volumes, and the maesters are all saying it's going to be a really long winter.  Having it last a piddling two volumes  or less (the white raven having arrived in ADWD's epilogue; ADOS possibly ending just as spring starts) does not make sense either thematically or in terms of the amount of time Martin's pacing typically covers.

Mrs Figg wrote:I think its unfeasible that such a talented and dedicated team would suddenly lose the plot in one year, so they may have been struggling with the crazy complexity of unfinished books. I don't blame the books or D&D for the drop off early on in this season, maybe it seemed slow after all the high drama we have been used to. maybe people are so used to having wow moments that the lack of them made things seem boring, but as I said before as a non book reader, the season seems to be heading back on track nicely. I really enjoy it and that's all that matters to me as entertainment.

I'm glad you're enjoying the season Mrs Figg, and I certainly don't want to take anything away from you. Personally, I started to be bugged by certain adaptational decisions in the fourth season, though all in all the highs in that season meant I wasn't too concerned. But the growth of those issues as well as the lack of any comparable highs so far (though I haven't seen episode eight yet) is what's got me disillusioned. But that's just my personal opinion on things.

The changes in season 5 seem to me to be taking up too much time that probably could have been used to further some of the original plots that have been removed/moved. Dany's story seems to have moved on incredibly quickly with material I wouldn't have expected until next season... however there seems to be a huge piece around his travels and the war camps etc missing....

Sansa is in Winterfell getting beaten up yet we are missing Reek being put on the path back to Theon by Roose Bolton.

Jaime and Bronn are taking up a reasonable amount of screen time yet we have lost complete touch with the Riverlands and Jaime's character starting to change.

Loras has been at a trial instead of getting in the fight at Dragonstone.

I don't really get why they had to go with all of these changes when perfectly good stories, and clearly some spare time, were right in front of them.

The failure to show the maturing leadership side of Jaime when they've got such an ideal actor for the job is a particularly keen loss.

After reading some things on awoiaf I'm glad they cut certain things from the tv show. The whole Lady Stoneheart thing is just weird.

yeah, I don't have any real problem with having her cut out, except that she plays a critical role in Brienne's storyline, and in the books it cuts off at a cliffhanger. I think the TV series would get there before the next book, but now with Stoneheart gone we just have to wait for the next book.

The Stoneheart thing is no more or less weird than white walkers, or the shadow thing Melisandre gave birth to, or any of the supernatural things going on in the series really!