Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[Eldorion]

Well duh, European = Christian.

Except for the Celts, the Romans, the ancient Norse, the Moors in Iberia for a thousand years, Sicily for a few hundred, the Ottomans, the Albanians, the Bosniaks, the Crimean Tatars, the Kalmyks, many Jews ... oh yeah, and people who are European citizens whose families happened to immigrate in the last few generations (though of course these immigrants represent a wide spectrum of faiths themselves).

[Mrs Figg]

whether he is right or wrong- Figg

I dont see how anyone watching that can be in any doubt of just how wrong and prejudice he is. He contradicts himself. He is insulting to an entire religous group without showing nuances in the vast gulf of opinions within that group. He is promoting the sort of world view, discriminatory ideals and poorly reasoned arguments which leads directly to idiots attacking Muslims, such as the women who got attacked for being a 'scarfie'.
People like him bear some responsibility for every unwarranted violent attack on a Muslim by promoting this unpalatable ignorant rubbish in the first place.

well I think he is right, and Salman Rushdie would probably agree with that too. I see no discriminatory views expressed just bald facts. Is it against the law to criticize Muslims now? You have felt free to criticize the Jews and their world view in the past, this is double standards.

[Eldorion]

That you think "the Jews" or "the Muslims" have a single worldview seems to me to be the root of the problem, and the main reason why racism keeps being mentioned.

[Pettytyrant101]

I see no discriminatory views expressed just bald facts.- Figg

Facts are a distant memory to what he says.

On the basis of his views most of Europe doesn't belong there.

If a fundamentalist Christian group believes that gay people should be forced to become straight or face punishment for it do you automatically assume every Christian in the world shares this view?
If a Christian attacks an abortionist does it automatically mean every Christian therefore is pro-life?

What about Catholics? Were Irish Catholics not responsible for centuries of terorrist attacks on Britain? So presumably following your logic every Catholic is a terrorist or supporter of terrorism.

I'm sorry, but its just nonsense.

[Mrs Figg]

That you think "the Jews" or "the Muslims" have a single worldview seems to me to be the root of the problem, and the main reason why racism keeps being mentioned.

the Muslims have to abide by the Koran, its rigid, therefore its a world view, they have the same rules no matter where they are in the world. They all pray to Mecca, what 6 times a day, fast on a certain day, follow rules on food, dress and etc etc. its hardly flexible. its also not racist to say its a world view.

[Mrs Figg]

I see no discriminatory views expressed just bald facts.- Figg

Facts are a distant memory to what he says.

On the basis of his views most of Europe doesn't belong there.

If a fundamentalist Christian group believes that gay people should be forced to become straight or face punishment for it do you automatically assume every Christian in the world shares this view?
If a Christian attacks an abortionist does it automatically mean every Christian therefore is pro-life?

What about Catholics? Were Irish Catholics not responsible for centuries of terorrist attacks on Britain? So presumably following your logic every Catholic is a terrorist or supporter of terrorism.

I'm sorry, but its just nonsense.

I am sorry but the Irish Catholic argument is bollocks.

Christians have a more varied and tolerant world view, some are very religious some are not, nobody forces them to pray each day facing East. Being a Muslim is pretty much what it says on the tin, and its not tolerant of a lot of things, ok Christians are intolerant too, But in LAW equality is a right. In Saudia Arabia unequality is upheld by the law, Sharia or whatever. So no gays, no drinking, no criticizing Islam, they all follow these laws, therefore its their world view. All women have to cover their heads or they are 'bad' Muslims. Adulterers get stoned. Its a medieval world view and apologists like you let them get on with this bullshit.

[Pettytyrant101]

In Saudia Arabia unequality is upheld by the law, Sharia or whatever.- Figg

Citing the laws in one country and equating it to a world view is ridiculous.

'More than 300 million Muslims, or one-fifth of the world’s Muslim population, live in countries where Islam is not the majority religion.'- Pew Research

So 300 million Muslims do not live under Muslim law. Yet you are claiming they share the EXACT same world view as ones who do?
Even within the Muslim religion there are countless groups and factions the two best known being Shia and Sunni.
If they all shared one world view why are their factions just as there are in every other world religion? Wouldnt they all be agreement?
Why are there growing and strong womens movements within Islam if they all have one world view? (Just as there were once growing an strong womens movements among Christians- and still are fighting for rights within their religion, such as the right to be a Priest)
We should be actively supporting such changes and ideals and those who hold them, not condemning every Muslim for the extreme views of some.

'apologists like you let them get on with this bullshit'

And views such as you are espousing are poisonous and lead to violence and death against innocent people for not having the same religion or outlook as you.

[Mrs Figg]

ok when England is full up and they start to filter up North, I would love to see your face when they complain kilts are obscene and whisky is the font of all evil. You will be the first one to shit down their chimneys.

''And views such as you are espousing are poisonous and lead to violence and death against innocent people for not having the same religion or outlook as you'' Petty

 yeah its all my fault

[Pettytyrant101]

ok when England is full up and they start to filter up North- Figg

People dont migrate to England. They migrate to the UK.
Much as it might annoy me we are still the same country as far as things like this go, immigration is not a devolved issue.


'yeah its all my fault'

In part yes. If enough people were to share your views where do you think it would lead?
Sending all Muslims back, even though a large amount of those here were born here?
Banning their religion?
Fire bombing Mosques?
Forcing them at gunpoint to renounce being Muslim?
Whats your end game? Where do your views lead to?

[Mrs Figg]

yeah all of the above. all religion is bollocks but theirs is more bollocks than normal. They attack the weak and helpless with their bollocks.

[Pettytyrant101]

I am no fan of any religion and would like to see them all consigned to history. I think we can keep whats good about them- charity and the like under the heading of humanitarianism and without needing to argue over whose imaginary super being is the 'real' imaginary super being. Or over what foods the imaginary superbeing says you can eat or whatever other nonsense comes with religious belief.

But getting to that point is done by education, understanding and debate. Not by condemning entire peoples on spurious claims.
And not by forcing people into secularism either. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was the only secular country in the region, its why he was our best pal for so long, but he was still a complete bastard and mass murderer.
Just getting rid of Sharia Law is not the answer- reforming the attitudes and interpretations of the Laws is a better place to start.

[Mrs Figg]

Today I will be mostly insulting world religions.

Tomorrow its the Scottish.

[Pettytyrant101]

I thought that was every day!

[Eldorion]

the Muslims have to abide by the Koran, its rigid, therefore its a world view, they have the same rules no matter where they are in the world. They all pray to Mecca, what  6 times a day, fast on a certain day, follow rules on food, dress and etc etc. its hardly flexible. its also not racist to say its a world view.

This is just as absurd as saying that all Jews follow Leviticus to the letter, or that all Christians subscribe to Biblical liberalism. To suggest that over a billion people from a multitude of counties and cultures share the same interpretation and strictness in their religion is both absurd and demonstrably false. It's almost as absurd even when talking about individual countries. Do you think Islam is somehow immune to moderates, to the only sporadically observant, and to people who overlook certain parts of their faith and scripture that they don't like? All religions have variations like this. My Italian Catholic grandmother goes to mass every morning and doesn't eat meat on Fridays, but anyone who has ever met more than a handful of Catholics (much less Christians in general) can tell you that most of them are not nearly so by-the-book.

[Mrs Figg]

dont you ever have days when you want to sail close to the wind and say something is BOLLOCKS!!! well today was that day. a wellspring of listening to self righteous pontificating jackasses trying to defend the indefensible just burst its banks. I dont hate muslims or their religion, just tired of their outrage and their excuses and their wars.
end of rant.

[Eldorion]

Wow.

[Mrs Figg]

the Muslims have to abide by the Koran, its rigid, therefore its a world view, they have the same rules no matter where they are in the world. They all pray to Mecca, what  6 times a day, fast on a certain day, follow rules on food, dress and etc etc. its hardly flexible. its also not racist to say its a world view.

This is just as absurd as saying that all Jews follow Leviticus to the letter, or that all Christians subscribe to Biblical liberalism. To suggest that over a billion people from a multitude of counties and cultures share the same interpretation and strictness in their religion is both absurd and demonstrably false. It's almost as absurd even when talking about individual countries. Do you think Islam is somehow immune to moderates, to the only sporadically observant, and to people who overlook certain parts of their faith and scripture that they don't like? All religions have variations like this. My Italian Catholic grandmother goes to mass every morning and doesn't eat meat on Fridays, but anyone who has ever met more than a handful of Catholics (much less Christians in general) can tell you that most of them are not nearly so by-the-book.

so its absurd. sue me.. hang on. stone me.

[Mrs Figg]

Wow.

[Mrs Figg]

The right to free speech includes the right not just to endorse or recommend, but also to criticize and ridicule. It does not protect you from criticism or ridicule.
I wouldn’t want to live in a society where certain privileged philosophies/religions are legally protected from criticism. That’s how fascism and tyranny starts.

[Pettytyrant101]

I'm all for critical crabbit rants against religion, just not for labeling everyone who follows a religion as all being the same. Especially if you mean by the same something very negative and only negative.

The Muslim world also gave us algebra, astronomy, some of the finest architecture and art work in the world.
When Europe finally woke up from the tyranny of the Catholic Church and its teachings we had to turn to the Muslim world to relearn most of these things as they had not only preserved them but continued the development of them whilst we were burning each other for not agreeing with the Pope on everything and thinking the sun went round a flat earth.

Much of the modern word could not exist without Muslim pioneers in the field (most of the instruments used in surgery to this day were Muslim inventions and developments for example, remember to thank them if you ever need surgery)

[Eldorion]

The right to free speech includes the right not just to endorse or recommend, but also to criticize and ridicule.  It does not protect you from criticism or ridicule.
I wouldn’t want to live in a society where certain privileged philosophies/religions are legally protected from criticism. That’s how fascism and tyranny starts.

I don't either, and I've gotten into a number of debates with Petty about the relative merits of the United States' and the United Kingdom's free speech laws, with the US' being considerably looser on several points.

But that doesn't mean I won't call people out.

[Mrs Figg]

I'm all for critical crabbit rants against religion, just not for labeling everyone who follows a religion as all being the same. Especially if you mean by the same something very negative and only negative.

The Muslim world also gave us algebra, astronomy, some of the finest architecture and art work in the world.
When Europe finally woke up from the tyranny of the Catholic Church and its teachings we had to turn to the Muslim world to relearn most of these things as they had not only preserved them but continued the development of them whilst we were burning each other for not agreeing with the Pope on everything and thinking the sun went round a flat earth.

Much of the modern word could not exist without Muslim pioneers in the field (most of the instruments used in surgery to this day were Muslim inventions and developments for example, remember to thank them if you ever need surgery)

all those things were over 500 years ago. No doubt islam was a haven of enlightenment. what do they give us today though? They ban laughter and nailvarnish. bit of a difference. Where are the great speakers of intellectual openness and enlightenment today? theres Salman Rushdie with a fatwah thats what. colour me cynical, and maybe I did go overboard with the negativity, but I dont see whats to be gained by avoiding the problems, that bloke Murray may be a neo-con asshole, but he seemed to be the one person unblinkingly saying theres a lot of violence going on and it aint the budhists doing it.

[Eldorion]

all those things were over 500 years ago. No doubt islam was a haven of enlightenment. what do they give us today though? They ban laughter and nailvarnish. bit of a difference. Where are the great speakers of intellectual openness and enlightenment today? theres Salman Rushdie with a fatwah thats what. colour me cynical, and maybe I did go overboard with the negativity, but I dont see whats to be gained by avoiding the problems, that bloke Murray may be a neo-con asshole, but he seemed to be the one person unblinkingly saying theres a lot of violence going on and it aint the budhists doing it.

Funny you should mention Buddhism...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/07/world/asia/dalai-lama-muslim-violence/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma

Again: no religions are exempt from these variations.

[Pettytyrant101]

I am not saying everything is rosy, clearly it is not.
But what is happening in the Muslim world is not unlike what happened in the western world, they are just reaching the same point at a later point in time. Its a period of change and flux and they are always messy.
And if you look at what it took us to break free of all those old repressive shackles it wasn't pretty or quick.

Added to this the current state of affairs in the Muslim world has not come about in isolation. There are local and religious reasons to be sure, and serious ones (Muslims kill more Muslims than Westerners) but we, as in the West cant wash our hands of it either.
We have helped create the environment in which extremism can grow. We exploited their resources with our companies to our benefit and not theirs (bar a few at the top) we supported and kept in place brutal regimes and backed with funds and resources wars that suited our purposes. We put Israel back in place and took land and homes from the Palestinians and created a massive amount of tension and ill feeling.
Millions of innocent people over the decades have lost family in conflicts where it was our troops doing the killing, and it doesn't matter if it was 'collateral damage' when its your parents, or your son, or your daughter, or husband or wife who is dead. You are not going to feel particularly well disposed to those responsible, whatever their reasons it will never seem to justify killing your loved ones.
Its a complex picture with a lot of factors playing into it that has made a situation ripe for turmoil.

More violence on our part, more stigmatizing entire peoples, more abusing their rights will not help improve anything or have any hope for the future.

As to what they give us today- Muslims have won the Nobel Prize in Science for their contributions to the world but the main problem is that you need settled coherent peaceful society for a period of time to flourish in the areas Islam used to.

It was only in the last century that Joseph Hell in his book, Arab Civilization said education was bound to flourish wherever Islam spread- 'Islam encouraged a noble ambition for learning, a craving for learning, a spirit of tolerance, a restless ambition to extend wider and yet wider the frontier of knowledge which so distinguishes the Muslims' mentality and stimulated lofty purpose.'

Its not impossible to return to those ideals. But it probably will be if we just turn our backs or worse blame Muslims for everything, including our own part in events.

[Mrs Figg]

we are definately part of the problem. But you have to wonder why they are sinking into medieval barbarism and intolerance. blowing up their own art history is bizarre. the moderates seem to be quiet on the subject, there doesnt seem to be a voice calling for a return to the values of 1000 years ago. Until recently after Alan Hennings murder the ordinary people interviewed on tv outside mosques on the news didnt seem to condemn the beheadings of Westeners very earnestly. it was all a bit half hearted and diffident. nobody seemed angry, its like they were either afraid to speak or didnt care. weird really. but thats my impression.