Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[David H]

Genetically modified crops may use less pesticide if that's the way they're engineered (splicing the BT toxin from certain bacteria into the crops for example).

Unfortunately by far the largest volume of GM crops out there are the Roundup Ready variety engineered by Monsanto.  They've spliced the antidote-producing gene into soybeans and corn so that no weeding is necessary: you just cropdust with massive amounts of Monsanto-made Roundup which kills almost everything green for miles around except the target crop.

It saves labor, not pesticide use, and Monsanto is laughing all the way to to the top of the Fortune 500 as they sell Roundup products by the tanker car.  Meanwhile nature is adapting as she does, and more and more weeds are becoming Roundup resistant, so Monsanto has new herbicides and GMO pairs in the wings when the exhaust the usefulness of Roundup through overuse.  

There's a lot of potential for good and for evil in the new tools of genetic splicing. Unfortunately (and predictably) they seem to be mostly being used to maximize profits of a few big corporations at the expense of smaller farmers and competing crops, rather than for the good of humanity.  

Nothing new really. But yeah, a lot more research is necessary than is now being done.

[Pettytyrant101]

So UKIP have won another by-election victory, taking the seat from the Tories.
What s the appeal to UKIP? I just dont see it. They are just the BNP in better suits and with more careful press releases.


And Ive been keeping half an eye on US politics today. So what do the Americans think of Obama's action on immigration? A necessary compassionate step to bypass a blocked useless legislative? Or a step to far in presidential power?

[Mrs Figg]

I see the appeal of UKIP. Its the Revenge of the polite middle aged, middle class, Daily Mail reading silent majority, its in the home counties, in villages up and down the country, in towns with ghettos and no-go areas. the ordinary Joe Blogs in the Street fed up and angry with the pc flim flam from Labour and the lack of backbone in the Lib Dems, the smug Tories. Its the little person sticking a finger up the arses of the status quo. You might not like it, it might verge on Little England 'lets blame it on immigrants' attitudes, but theres a groundswell of anger and its come from the general ineptitude of politicians today.

[azriel]

She's not wrong you know

[Pettytyrant101]

it might verge on Little England 'lets blame it on immigrants' attitudes- Figg

I dont think it verges it on it, I think its right on top of it stomping racism all over the place. UKIP had a 'slip up' yesterday where it leaked they were discussing repatriation for immigrants. It'll be 'work camps' next.

Surely England can find a protest group to vote for that are not racists?

[Mrs Figg]

meh I dont think they are racists, intolerant, yes, racist, no. I think its not against the immigrants because they are foreigners but because for far too long theres the belief that the system has been royally screwed by people who dont even speak our Language, screwed by pirate eye patched mad mullahs, benefit tourists, no controls on the borders, etc etc. The anger has built up over years, they were bound to snap sooner or later.

[Pettytyrant101]

So you think its a good idea if the UK starts forceably 'sending people home'.
Cause it scares the shit out of me.
Their rhetoric is dangerous, has the potential to incite violence, it already incites plenty of hatred, and its base don a false premise- that immigrants are taking work from the British and that they come here for our benefits. Neither of which is borne out by the figures, facts or evidence.
Our NHS alone would collapse in a single day if you remove the immigrant workers from it.
As would our transport system.

[Eldorion]

What exactly is the basis for anti-immigration sentiment in the UK?  Like, I know that paranoia about immigrants can be found in nearly every country in the world, but how do they present it?  Do they use the "they're taking our jerbs" angle like some Americans say about Latinos or what the French said about Poles?  Does it boil down to "why won't they stop speaking their language"?  Or is it just "oh no teh Moslems are coming!"?

[Pettytyrant101]

Its tied to the EU - membership includes free movement of people across borders. And when you are in another EU country you are entitled to certain benefits same as those who live there.
It wasnt a big political problem really until the recession, then typically people started to blame the immigrants.
The Tories and UKIP have been trying to out compete each other on who is strongest on immigrants.
All the usual anti-immigrant stuff is in the mix- they dont accept our culture, they dont mix, they dont talk our language, they take our jobs (and at the same time somehow our benefits), they get preferential treatment in housing over locals, they are over burdening our NHS and schools. Its the same vile, yet seductive, mix that history has shown us before.
And both sides make this absurd claim that immigrants come here for our generous benefit system and to just take, leaving the natives worse off and with stretched services.

Unfortunately for them study after study has shown its not true-

“On average EU migrants are more likely to be in employment than nationals living in the same country,” said the report.
This study found little evidence... to suggest that the main motivation of EU citizens to migrate and reside in a different member state is benefit-related, as opposed to work or family-related.
This is underpinned by data which show that, in most countries, immigrants are not more intensive users of welfare than nationals.
Where they are more intensive users, they tend to use intensely only specific types of benefits linked to their socio-economic circumstances as migrants.
Where some studies found evidence supporting the "welfare magnet effect" hypothesis, the overall estimated effects are typically small or not statistically significant.”
the report’s authors concluded that “considering all unemployment benefits... the UK is the only EU member state where there were less beneficiaries among EU migrants (1%) than among nationals (4%).”- BBC


But neither UKIP or the Tories seem to want to talk about facts. They are whipping up a dangerous level of anti-immigration sentiment built on false premises and scare mongering to win votes.

[halfwise]

Genetically modified crops may use less pesticide if that's the way they're engineered (splicing the BT toxin from certain bacteria into the crops for example).

Unfortunately by far the largest volume of GM crops out there are the Roundup Ready variety engineered by Monsanto.  They've spliced the antidote-producing gene into soybeans and corn so that no weeding is necessary: you just cropdust with massive amounts of Monsanto-made Roundup which kills almost everything green for miles around except the target crop.

It saves labor, not pesticide use, and Monsanto is laughing all the way to to the top of the Fortune 500 as they sell Roundup products by the tanker car.  Meanwhile nature is adapting as she does, and more and more weeds are becoming Roundup resistant, so Monsanto has new herbicides and GMO pairs in the wings when the exhaust the usefulness of Roundup through overuse.  

There's a lot of potential for good and for evil in the new tools of genetic splicing. Unfortunately (and predictably) they seem to be mostly being used to maximize profits of a few big corporations at the expense of smaller farmers and competing crops, rather than for the good of humanity.  

Nothing new really. But yeah, a lot more research is necessary than is now being done.

It's good to get a more complete story than heard from the press. In this case, I suppose as soon as the corn is planted the Roundup treatment begins, and I wouldn't be surprised to find this affects bees. And the bee farmer who complained about the GM crops might not have seen fit to explain all this to a dumbass reporter who probably wouldn't catch the subtleties, or the reporter had it explained but didn't catch the subtleties.

I wouldn't be happy about mass applications of Roundup next door either.

[Pettytyrant101]

What exactly is the basis for anti-immigration sentiment in the UK?- Eldo

Thing with UKIP is they have managed to do what the BNP never did- to pass themselves off as reasonable, voicing reasonable demands of the people.
But you will note they try to give only one side of the argument- dismissing the plus side to immigration as not significant- despite the collapse in our services it would cause almost immediately, and using such poisonous and dangerous terms as -'taking the country back'- for whom, from whom? The French for 1066, the vikings? The Irish? The UK is, and always has been a home to migrants.
Same goes for the dangerous phrase-  'our way of life'- whats that then? Because its different in Scotland to England, and both to Wales, and Manchester is different from London and Cornwall from Glasgow- what is this mysterious 'way of life' that's under threat. And lastly they use genuinely appalling stuff- radicalisation, genital mutilation, forced marriage which happen in tiny minority incidents and present them as if they are common place.
Lots of devious tricks, but delivered in a manner that if you are not wary it all sounds perfectly reasonable, especially coming from a nice man in a smart suit-

[Mrs Figg]

In England theres always been a certain amount of immigrants taking our jobs mentality, but its never boiled over into race hate crimes or fire bombing shops as happens to the Turks in Austria. Its tempered by a certain English sense of humour about Johnny Foreigner, like we dont take it all too seriously, or ourselves, for that matter. But since the recession things have got tough for native English people, there have been real or perceived influxes of immigration that has swamped certain large towns, its only a small Island and its ok to criticize peoples fears if you live in the wilds of Scotland and dont see one Asian face from month to month let alone schools where none of the kids native Language is English. People (English)have started to feel like outsiders in their own country, under threat and outnumbered, there are women with burkahs EVERYWHERE, its disconcerting and a bit worrying. Obviously life should be like one big Coca-cola advert with folk holding hands in a Rainbow, but the reality is forced marriages, honour killings, female genital mutilation, racial segregation, ghettos, and now Asian kids brought up supposedly with UK values, turning up in Syria saying Death to the West and beheading English victims. What the fuck is that about! values that English people find alien and abhorent. Its unpleasant but its wrong to deny there are problems with immigration, and naive. So i say if they renounce britain they should be left to rot in the desert, and if they dont integrate and dont like our laws, its back off home.

[Pettytyrant101]

I am not saying there are not problems. I am saying that when you look at the numbers, the studies done, its not a significant problem.

Many of the places UKIP have done well dont have a large immigrant settlement- Devon, Dorset, Gloustershire, Hampshire- these are middle/upper-middle class white areas but people are made afraid of looming 'tides of immigrants'.

It certainly has no justification to be the main driving force right now in UK politics at Westminster. Its been blown out of all proportion.
Politicians are acting recklessly in the chase for votes and trying to outdo each other over who is tougher on johnny foreigner in a way they have never done in the UK before. They are stoking up differences and perceived problems way beyond the merit of the real issues. And its very dangerous and foolhardy.

[azriel]

Whatever I say, Im terrified I will sound racist & that it will offend someone. And therein is another problem. I can only speak as I find in my neck of the woods, how people round me feel. Ive no intention whatsoever to go on a rampage beating or fire bombing or any other act of hate or violence. But, people here ARE a tad fed up of immigrants taking, or rather seemingly, taking jobs that indigenous English men & women are going after. Ive got 3 friends who are nurses & all 3 say the same thing. the only reason British nurses leave UK nursing is due to the wages argument & that they can get better pay overseas. In fact, they say hiring immigrant workers for nursing is costing the national health MORE. So, why not pay our medics more & keep them here at home ? I dont get it ? but we do have a disproportionate number of immigrants working in every sector you see. I hear the moans & grumbles every time I go out. I take notice & hear better as Im on my own. Im not married, have no partner so my lug'oles are more tuned in to conversation & yes, gossip to.People tut & roll their eyes when they see a dark face serve them in shops. Now, I dont know if UKIP are making things worse but, its coming more & more to the fore front. Its not a new issue. people in the 60's were complaining about the black people that came here, now its everyone that gets bitched about.

[azriel]

Is it depression that is the cause ? If we ALL had a good standard of living, something to look forward to every day, enough disposable income to enjoy things like a decent break a way without having to save viciously ? Its not helping that Joe Bloggs is skint to the eyeballs & even a holiday seems like an unattainable dream ! I heard on the news that the charity SHELTER still say people are losing their homes, ( private & rented ) & are facing living on the streets. Yet, Government tells us we are recovering ! Things are looking up ! Are they ? Im not feeling it yet ?

[Mrs Figg]

I have lived in isolated country villages where there are no immigrants to big cities with a high density of complex racial communities, in the first one I felt I was living in England, and in the second I could have been living in Delhi or Bagdad, it was yes, colourful and interesting, but did I feel part of the community or welcomed, no I did not. I felt like an intruder in my own country I felt like I had to tip-toe around in case I made a faux-pas, nobody spoke to me, nobody gave me the time of day. In my comfort zone back with other English people I felt more relaxed and confident. maybe its a generational thing, because although I am used to multi-cultural big cities, they feel alien and discombobulating. 20 years ago when I left England there was the odd woman in a sari, now its full of black burkahs and it seems like there has been some serious Islamification or fundamentalism going on, all the young Asian women now wear elaborate headgear, its quite shocking how much things have changed.

[Pettytyrant101]

A lot of it is perception Azriel.

I felt like an intruder in my own country- Mrs Figg

If I go to the shop at the bottom of my hill I am served by an Indian. If I go to the shop at the top of the hill, I am served by an Indian.
But they are both Scots, they sound Scots, we talk about the same sort of things I would with any other Scot -football, price of fags, weather, how there missus (or hubbie, his wife often works there too) and kids are doing.
I think part of the problem in England, where there is a genuine problem, is that for some reason immigrants in England were all housed together- so entire streets changed in short periods, blocks of flats became full of immigrants.
In Scotland we didn't do that. Immigrants are housed all over the country. So you get a slow creep- there are far more brown and black faces in my town than when I was growing up, and there were a lot more then than typical thanks to the US navy presence, but its been a slow increase over my lifetime.
It encourages immigrants to adopt more of the local society as they cannot do what comes naturally, like Brits on the Costa, stick together and all talk their own language. So integration happens more naturally. And the other way local people are less inclined to be stand offish as they dont feel threatened by numbers, so they interact with immigrants more.
I think how immigrants have been integrated here is why UKIP have not had the success in Scotland they have shown in England. We just dont have that sense of threat to culture or society that seems to have been fostered south of the border.

So I can see England has genuine issues, but the scale of them is not what people are being led to believe by the political classes.
And it hasn't helped when in the past the main parties at Westminster have deflected questions over their immigration policies but accusing anyone who says anything of just being racist. Even when the concern has genuine basis.

But mainly its a way to deflect blame.
The economy is not in a mess because of immigrants or benefits.
Its in a mess because the banks globally collapsed.

There is not a housing shortage because all the immigrants have taken the social housing.
There is a housing issue because of Thatchers Right to Buy scheme, and consecutive governments of all colours since failing to build replacements.

There is not a lack of decent jobs because of immigrants.
There is a lack of decent jobs because of the poor economy and the introduction by government of zero hours contracts, not increasing the minimum wage in line with inflation, freezing public sector pay rises at 1% since the recession began and other draconian work practices whilst failing to undertake public works that would boost the construction sector and spending public taxes on bailing out and supporting private companies.

And lastly, approx. 2 million Brits emigrate to other EU countries every year.
There are approx 2.4 million EU immigrants living here right now.

Funny how we only ever see that second figure as a problem.

[azriel]

The last paragraphs are quite correct. I never did agree that being able to buy your council house was a good idea. If you wanna buy then go on the private sector. But thats another argument. I agree with plenty that you say. Actually its only on here that I can thrash this sort of thing out. I dont have anything to do with people much. I keep myself to myself, I just potter about getting on with my own business, head down & all that but, I do like listening & "people watching" I personally dont give a flying fook what people do as long as you dont hurt each other doing it ! But you cant be complacent or naive, you are alive after all, you do live in this world & are a bit part of it so, you must be aware of it. ( Im saying "you" generally not singling you out personally ) We've been down this path before & humans really are not going to change that much, certainly not overnight. Its a familiar story thats gone on for yonks. We've actually forgotten that bodkins have travelled & roamedthe world for centuries. Its all so great & interesting when its a documentary prog on TV, about caveman Bob & family, & how he crossed the Alps to get to Cleethorpes but, when its TODAY.... ? and caveman Bob lives next door ? everyone starts squealing. My grandparents often said " God gave everyone a country of their own, so bloody well stay in it !" I heard that & plenty more as I grew up.

[Mrs Figg]

I dont see it as an economic problem, more a cultural one. oil and water, dont mix.

[Pettytyrant101]

oil and water, dont mix.- Figg

Lucky then we live on a planet with only one race then, the human race. All oil, or all water.

[halfwise]

Everybody likes familiarity...but if you frame it right the new is quite delightful. I can see how small towns want to stay the way they are, but if you accept the idea that big cities are all about change, then you enjoy the enclaves.

Where I live, I have the best of both worlds. I can go out the door and of course I'm in America, but if I close my eyes and let reality swirl a bit, I open them and I'm in the Dominican Republic. My building is nearly all Dominicans, very friendly people. I like the feeling of being in their world, and I think because it's America, they feel somewhat welcome and so extend the welcome feeling to me.

Too bad their cooking lacks all inspiration.

[Mrs Figg]

oil and water, dont mix.- Figg

Lucky then we live on a planet with only one race then, the human race. All oil, or all water.

duh!

unfortunately its not as simple as that. Its not the race or colour. Its the culture. One is medieval the other is modern.

[azriel]

I agree. Sorry, but I do. There are some cultures that go unnoticed purely because they dont bring something to the forefront. Unlike some that we just cant get to terms with. So called honour killings, the horrible way they treat women, various things that make it hard to except these people. It opens up a great big gap that widens each time something unacceptable is brought up.The English are quite "stick in the mud" where some things go & so often Ive heard the phrase "When in Rome...." . Yet some cultures do NOT want to give an inch.If there's no compromise at least, how will people get along ? they aint.

[Pettytyrant101]

Culture shifts all the time, ours and other peoples. You cannot judge solely on the seeming norms of the moment.
If I went back 100 years in time I wouldnt recognise large parts of Scots culture, it would be just as alien.
At various times in the UK it has been the custom to burn people alive, behead them. And not just in the past. In recent times we have taken part in renditions- sending people to countries we know they will be tortured in to keep our own hands clean. Western democracies have assassinated political leaders in other countries to suit our own needs and interfered in other countries markets to fix them for our benefit. We exploit workers all over the world to produce us cheap goods.
Our culture is just as capable of barbarity as any other. The difference is what is emphasised at what time.
Right now in Muslim countries there is a power struggle going on among different religious groups, and in fear of secularism.
Grievances are being stoked up, genuine and false. Old grudges dug back up and presented as new grudges.
And all for the same old reasons as always, power, control over others and belief.

But you cannot judge a people or a nation on these things alone.
For every radical Muslim there is a moderate.
For every jihadist there is a family just trying to live in peace, put food on the table and pay the bills.
We have more in common than we have differences and if we want solve these issues we have to find that common ground- not just highlight the differences and wash our hands of each other.

Current culture in certain parts of the world will change again, it always does. Better if those with level heads on both sides seek to make that sooner rather than later.

[Mrs Figg]

Its funny though when you watch tv news programms when they randomly ask Young Asian Brits if they actually feel British a lot of them say no, they dont, a lot of them say they feel Asian first, a lot of them are ambivalent or diffident, they seem reluctant to stand up and say they feel part of British culture, like its a dirty word, some of them reject Britain, some of them seem to feel hard done by and go off to do Jihad, then realize just how easy they had it in the UK and want to come 'home'. If you say UKIP is racist thats like calling thousands of ordinary people racist, and I dont believe we are racist, just realistic. Its fine having egalitarian ideals but the reality is messy and difficult, and sometimes racial integration is NOT possible, its just not, if the two cultures are so far removed, or unwilling to compromise, and i suppose the feeling is people have had enough of pandering, focus groups, political correct hand wringing. The reality is if you live in someone elses country you dont try to impose Sharia law, you dont abuse the system and you try to learn the Language and respect the host countries culture.