Re: The Desolation of Smaug pre-release thread [3] [SPOILERS]

[Forest Shepherd]

He’s more complex, he’s very complex. Maybe because I’m the actor who plays him, I understand him and I agree with him. I agree with everything he does. In the prologue, he turns away when the dragon comes. Would you do any differently? This is a dragon. He knows. He’s fought dragons, he was part of the big serpent wars, he knows how hard they are to kill.

Source (courtesy of Heirs of Durin and the Thranduilings tumblr)

I hate when actors from The Hobbit speak to interviewers in glib little phrases like "Well yes, he's humongously fat: he eats cheese by the wheel. So although Tolkien did not have Bombur breaking furniture in Rivendell with his bulk, I'm certain he would have smiled upon the idea." (Source: My imagination)

As we all know, interviews tend to consist of fairly obvious questions and statements. Things are dumbed down for the audience. We expect, therefore, to be reminded of obvious character details, so that when someone like Lee Pace mentions "The Serpent Wars,"* the general public that are not aware of Tolkien's writing will accept that Tolkien did indeed write about such an event, and that it was indeed a formative thing in Thranduil's past.
It is a very sneaky and misleading way of shuffling out Tolkien and sticking in Jackson. Eventually, the whole hand belongs to him.

And we get this:


(That must be Thrandy in the sky there, during his tiger-tattoo and face-product stage,)
*



P.S.

Yeah, the dwarves knew how hard dragons are to kill too. That's why they never tried...until PJ came along with his stupid molten gold malarkey.

Why would molten anything have an effect on a dragon anyway? Being creatures of fire, nothing of that sort would do them any harm.

[Bluebottle]

Serpent wars could refer to the first age and the Silmarillion, I guess. Not sure how well Thranduils backstory was fleshed out in Tolkiens notes though.

More likely just another fanfiction addition.  

[Mrs Figg]

Strange stuff there, with Thranduil's scar. (I mean, when was Thranduil around dragons?) I must have missed the first mention of it on this thread: can't seem to find it.

Last night I was reading through some more of the upcoming film details, and I realized that, emotionally, I was and have been incredibly let down by book-to-movie adaptations of my two most cherished book series: The Hobbit, and The Chronicles of Narnia: such willful stupidity in nearly every scene, such poorly executed emotional highs and lows, complete misinterpretations of cherished sequences. It drags you down if you let it.

On the other hand, I did enjoy the Harry Potter films a lot, as well as Sherlock, so it's not as if everything in sight is grey and dismal.
I remember seeing the The Goblet of Fire and feeling that same emotion you get when you see friends after a long separation. I felt included and, strangely enough, liked. (Which is exactly how the books made me feel, growing up). I hadn't seen the second and third yet, which mostly explains that separation of time feeling.

But with these Hobbit movies, and the Chronicles of Narnia, I feel so letdown and tricked, as if the ideal version in my head has been intentionally undermined by those involved. It's a mean thing to do, to put out work that so clearly distorts whole generation's worth of imagination.

Consider how Doctor Who fans would feel if a new doctor came along that used guns, killed off enemies without a thought, and slept around with all his companions!
 

About the scar. I just assumed Azog had done it.  

I feel exactly the same way about the Harry Potter books and films, I thought they were wonderful, welcoming and emotionally satisfying. Strangely when I had finished reading The Goblet of Fire I felt a kind of loss, like I had lost friends, and the last book felt like a little bit of pocket sized grief.  
I too feel let down and cheated over The Hobbit, its terrible that all that money could be wasted on this trash, it could have gone to better use, I cant believe that every last detail of the design was perfect, but the final effect is bombastic empty cheap shallow garbage. I cant believe Lee and Howe, who I admire, were used like this. I cant fathom what the heck was going on in PJ's brain.
I wasnt too emotionally attched to Narnia as a kid, for me it was The Golden Compass film that sucked and let me down.

[Radaghast]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Tolkien ever referring to a dragon as a serpent.

Also, how the hell do you escape a fight with a dragon with just a scar?

[Lancebloke]

Not sure if referred to as serpents but they were worms in the first age. Glaurang wasnt winged.

[Radaghast]

Other than dragons, I remember wyrms or drakes.

[Lancebloke]

Lore check!!

I seem to remember something about a serpent eye when talking about enchanting people.

Talking of lore... whatever happened to Yavanna? Appeared and disappeared very quickly. Seemed like a nice a knowledgeable (thats the link to lore) girl.

[Radaghast]

Yavanna recently posted in the Ralph Bakshi thread.

[Eldorion]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Tolkien ever referring to a dragon as a serpent.

Also, how the hell do you escape a fight with a dragon with just a scar?

I was thinking about that, and I don't recall any mentions of serpents off the top of my head. It certainly wasn't the default descriptor. I dunno, I think "the Great Worm Wars" sounds kinda badass.

[Radaghast]

For some reason, I just had a thought that Smaug might show up at the Bot5A

[Eldorion]

I've heard a number of people speculate that maybe the Necromancer will, er, necromance Smaug and there will be a zombie dragon at the battle. But I find that to be an exceedingly unlikely possibility, especially since Smaug will (DOS SPOILERS) apparently not die until the third movie.

[Radaghast]

Nothing would surprise me at this point, though I won't fail to be dismayed. That's why I'm staying away. Better to hear it second-hand than witness it up on the screen  

[Lancebloke]

I wouldnt put anything by PJ. Ancalagon himself will probably be necromanced to avenge something.

[Forest Shepherd]

I wouldnt put anything by PJ. Ancalagon himself will probably be necromanced to avenge something.

 

Now now, let's keep things reasonable.

[Radaghast]

Then King Kong appears and fights both zombie Smaug and zombie Ancalagon.

[Forest Shepherd]

But then at the last minute King Kong becomes enamoured with Fili, mistaking him for his Miss Darrow. He leaps onto the mountain-top with her, leaving the zombie dragons free reign down below, where they commence making everyone in sight into fast food burgers, while encouraging eachother to break away from their cruel parent master, the Necromancer, who they bash in the head until he's dead, at which point they lug his body inside a safe to a local sinkhole, which is full of giant insects that they must defeat in combat, which they do easily, but once they do they realize that the ghosts of the dead insects can speak to them from beyond, which makes them somewhat nervous, as they keep going on about Sumatran rat-monkeys, but just then they are offered a part in a rat's porno movie, which they gladly accept because hey why not.

[Radaghast]

But then at the last minute King Kong becomes enamoured with Fili....

Unless it was Kili...

[azriel]

They could have a 3some ?

[Radaghast]

Let's leave John Boorman out of this  

[Eldorion]

But then at the last minute King Kong becomes enamoured with Fili....

Well, Fili is the blond one. {{{He is, right?}}}

[Mrs Figg]

But then at the last minute King Kong becomes enamoured with Fili, mistaking him for his Miss Darrow. He leaps onto the mountain-top with her, leaving the zombie dragons free reign down below, where they commence making everyone in sight into fast food burgers, while encouraging eachother to break away from their cruel parent master, the Necromancer, who they bash in the head until he's dead, at which point they lug his body inside a safe to a local sinkhole, which is full of giant insects that they must defeat in combat, which they do easily, but once they do they realize that the ghosts of the dead insects can speak to them from beyond, which makes them somewhat nervous, as they keep going on about Sumatran rat-monkeys, but just then they are offered a part in a rat's porno movie, which they gladly accept because hey why not.

so you saw DOS? it sounds fun, specially the rat-monkeys sinkhole.  

[Beleg]

For PJ:  

After reading these spoilers, Radaghast sums up my feelings most succinctly.

Something in my brain keeps screaming "what the hell was wrong with the original story?????!!!!"

I haven't read TH in about a year and a half, and I'm sure these have been discussed in detail somewhere (unless y'all have simply given up on dissecting all of PJ's blunders due to the sheer volume) but:

Why do we need the hobbits fleeing Beorn (in bear form) into his own home?
Why do we need orcs at all between "Out of Frying Pan and into the Fire" and the Bo5A??? Orc's fighting elves in Mirkwood? During the barrel scene no less? Orc's in Laketown, presumably before Smaug's demise? WTH? If they were battling orc's in Mirkwood (whose presence the elves would clearly have not tolerated), the whole "it's not our fight" conversation has no relevance because you are already fighting them on your doorstep.

I'm alarmed at the concept of Thorin's little band trying to fight Smaug...granted they were taken by surprise but the dwarves of the lonely mountain at the height of their glory and in far greater numbers were unable to even slow him down, so what the hell is Thorin's little company going to accomplish other than getting themselves incinerated (which they clearly don't)? The only thing that could come from a scene or scenes of Thorin & Co. fighting Smaug (other than dead dwarves) would be to minimize the strength and power of Smaug if he cannot kill a little band of dwarves.

The whole Azog and Bolg thing still pisses me off, but Azog (who should have been dead before Bilbo left Bag End) SNEAKING into Laketown to fight Legolas (who shouldn't be there) and Tauriel (who shouldn't exist), apparently with the populous of Laketown unaware of their presence and their fight, just damn. And what kind of fight is it going to be anyway? The way Legolas and Tauriel handle those bows Azog and/or Bold wouldn't be able to get within striking distance without looking like a giant ugly pin cushion.

As I recall reading TH the first time so many years ago, the orcs had been left behind and their arrival at the Lonely Mountain was a giant "oh shit!" That has to be lost in the movies as Thorin & Co. are apparently constantly fighting or fleeing orcs. There can be no giant shift from joy over Smaug's demise and their reclamation of the Lonely Mountain to fear and dread over fighting a vast army of orcs if the orcs are always present anyway.

[Radaghast]

There can be no giant shift from joy over Smaug's demise and their reclamation of the Lonely Mountain to fear and dread over fighting a vast army of orcs if the orcs are always present anyway.

And possibly working for Smaug, as suggested by one reviewer.

[Mrs Figg]

Basically. You cant fight Smaug, and to think of the bland Thorin trying to force his band of losers to attempt such a silly thing really gets my goat.  

[Eldorion]

That last point is a really good one, Beleg, and not something I'd considered before.  I'm glad you brought it up.  Though reflecting on it, it's not terribly surprising since PJ has never been one to play his cards close to his chest when it comes to building suspense or having surprises on screen.