Re: The Desolation of Smaug pre-release thread [3] [SPOILERS]

[Pettytyrant101]

For me the disappearance is not the problem, its the arrival.
Putting aside that they would have had to leave before they knew there was even going to be a battle in order to turn up in time, it completely destroys the tension of the odds they are facing.
PJ rightly makes a big deal of the weaknesses in the defending army, and highlights Gamlings line about most have seen to many winters or too few by giving it to Gimli.
And then he has the confrontation between Aragorn and Theoden, "we are not all so lucky in our friends as you," but its immediately ruined by the elves turning up, as is the entire set up.
And for what? A cheap cheer and the lingering problem of how to get rid of all these elves who are no longer needed in the plot.

Its a mess.

[bungobaggins]

Where did the elves disappear to? Did they teleport like Galadriel?

[Bluebottle]

The "let's introduce a couple of hundred elven warriors and have them all die in a couple of minutes" is still quite ridiculous though. It means their apperance has no logic even in the sense of original writing.

[Mrs Figg]

The Battle for Helms Deep is one of the most highly thought of battle scenes ever filmed. Period.

[Bluebottle]

I always assumed they were killed of to a man (sorry, elf).

[Forest Shepherd]

I actually like some of the made up stuff from LOTR, I like Elves in Helms Deep, its not canon but its fun for 5 minutes until they all disappear and Haldir cops for it.

The problem I had with elves in Helm's Deep was the interaction between the people of Rohan and the elves themselves. Sure, it makes sense that the Rohirrim would be in awe of them, but I disliked how the film-makers wished for us to also be in awe of the elves regimented machine-like movements. The scene of their introduction played as if the elves wished to show up the shoddy Rohirrim with their raggedy-locks and chaotic Warg-fighting skills.
I would have liked all of the Rohirrim to show the skill and deftness of Eomer's party in their ambush of the orcs earlier in the film. Instead, I always felt a strange discontinuity between the representation of Rohan's fighting men as sometimes being bad-ass Riders of Awesomeness and then sometimes the scrapings of the barrel.

P.S.
Good point, for all their fancy get-ups, it does appear in the film as if every single elf is killed.

[Pettytyrant101]

Not by me it isnt Mrs Figg- and yes a lot of it well shot, although a lot of the cutting is too rapid for me.

It worked well as a device in the Mines of Moria, where it gave a sense of being in the midst of a skirmish, but for Helms Deep (and the Pelenor) you need to present a more concise view of what is going on overall in the battle I think.

But its not the quality of direction that is really in question, its the narrative choices which are illogical and undermine all the work preceding to set up the scale of the odds being faced and the peril being felt.

PJ said he wanted it to be like the film Zulu, with a long slow tense build up in an against the odds fight- yet he gave us Zulu where the rest of the British Army turn up right before the Zulu's charge. Thus he not only screwed up Tolkien he also doesn't seem to understand the whole point of Zulu either  

And how come compared to Lothlorien crack troops Legolas still looks like a superhero and they are, every last one of them, shit and die (they do all die- something I eventually noticed when doing the purist edits- when the wall goes and Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas and Haldir form a defence in the courtyard behind the wall.
Theoden calls to Aragorn to get his troops out of there, and the next we see of Aragorn and co they are leaping up the stairs to the Hornburg with orcs hot on their heels and the last of the elves dies on the stairs, leaving only our heroes alive through the gate at the top, clumsily returning to the original elfless plot).

[Mrs Figg]

The rag-tag Rohirrim was supposed to show symbolically the desperate nature of what they were up against, the fact they were few, and a lot of them past fighting age, or too Young to fight, while the hoards of Orcs waited outside. I thought it brought out the pathos of their situation. If they had all been crack troops it wouldnt have been so poignant. Cinematically it worked better.

[Pettytyrant101]

I thought it brought out the pathos of their situation. If they had all been crack troops it wouldnt have been so poignant.- Mrs Figg

Exactly Figg- and having a crack troop of elves turning up is even worse and ruins it completely.

[Mrs Figg]

I was talking about the situation of the MEN of the Rohirrim, the Elves turning up didnt change the odds much. Haldir brought a smallish cohort not an army. It was a symbolic gesture more than evening out the odds. They were still out numbered by the orc army.

[Pettytyrant101]

Legolas is a one elf killing machine, and they get a good few hundred more of his like (and probably better and older elves too with experience in battle stretching back to big shit like Gondolin going down and the Last Alliance), its a game changer.

[Sinister71]

The elves at Helms Deep was probably about the worst of the made up fanfiction in LOTR by Jackson minus of course the Gandalf/Witch King staff breaking nonsense which was only in the EE. But the first scenario I was able to over look despite it being made up, because it felt right in a small way. Because it built up some semblance of hope for the side of good.  It wasn't great but it was better than what could have been (Arwen princess warrior at Helm's Deep)... The later with the Gandalf W/K was just crap that I still fast forward past to this day.

The Hobbit however the screen writers NEVER took seriously. Which might be its biggest downfall. They felt that because it was a linear adventure tale, without all the complex plot twists LOTR presented. That the material within the Hobbit story was sub par in comparison. Which I completely disagree with. It most certainly was not sub par just not as complex and confusing. That is until Peter Jackson got his dirty hands all over it. Then the story became a muddied mess which started to get confusing and made no sense from a story telling perspective. A good story has a beginning , a middle and an end and does not repeat itself needlessly, to foreshadow events later in the story. Which happens WAY WAY TOO MUCH in Jackson's Hobbit films. As if the audience are a bunch of idiots  

Jackson keeps wanting to remind everyone of his LOTR films instead of letting people find his LOTR films thru good story telling. Subtle things like the ring should be non reminiscent of the ring from LOTR it should look the same but not be presented as the "one ring". There should be no slow motion allusions to its nature, no close up center of frame shots. Mainly any ring shots should focus heavily on Bilbo as a character and not on the ring as a driving force of his character. The ring was a tool and nothing more at this point in the story as a whole.

Sauron should never be referred to as the great lord, or any direct links to his real name or nature. The character should only ever be referred to as the necromancer while using subtle visual hints as to his true identity. Leaving all this to be figured out later by seeing the LOTR trilogy. Making Sauron a major character and bringing his ring to the forefront does nothing other than make Gandalf look like an idiot for not noticing earlier AND making the Story of the Hobbit more about Sauron's return instead of about Bilbo's adventure.   Been there done that.

Azog should have been dead and left that way had they needed a nemesis for Thorin, Bolg should have been that nemesis. The whole crap about fathers and sons is not what the story was about. It was never about Thorin's relationship to his father or Azog's relationship to Bolg. It was always a linear adventure about the dwarfs reclaiming their lost treasure. I could see Jackson wanting to make it about reclaiming their homeland. The appendices material with Dain Ironfoot is SO much better than what Jackson changed it to for the screen. What we get is a Dain that is unhelpful and unworthy of being King Under the mountain at this point because of Jackson's changes.( YEAH I'M STILL   PISSED  ABOUT THEIR TREATMENT OF DAIN THUS FAR ) Had they stuck to Tolkien and trusted the source material in the Hobbit and the appendices we would have had some great films... But all this father and son stuff Jackson is pushing is just worthless IMO. Meanwhile on a Bolg side note....It looks like Conan Stevens has been dropped and now the guy who played Lurtz in LOTR is doing Bolg all Mo-cap. Can Jackson ever get his shit together to make a great film without changing his mind every day?  

There are other things like the crappy design choice of Beorn with his hybrid bear man look or  Grinch clone (as I prefer), the great goblin with his nut sack chin or Radagast the bird crap covered buffoon. Plus ALL the over use of CGI and green screen where you can obviously tell everything is fake and video game like, that annoy me to no end. The whole Black arrow thing being shot from a bullista is just ridiculous since there was nothing wrong with its portrayal in the book.. Then there is the fact that I'm not sold on Tauriel or Legolas's inclusion in these films one little bit. Lilly's acting has actually made me hate her even more since first hearing of her characters inclusion. As well as every time she opens her mouth with that "please don't hate me" crap. The made up stuff just gets worse and worse as it goes on IMO.   

I do see some pretty good things in the upcoming film though too I've pretty much gotten over the dwarfs looks although I still despise Kili and completely hate the axe in Bifur's head while at the same time thinking he does look pretty cool other wise. Thranduil looks pretty bad ass IMHO, Bard I'm starting to like the look but still hate the 3 kids thing and not sure about the whole Robin hood comparison. But so far he looks pretty cool other than those few things. I'm not stressing anymore I'm going into DOS with a I don't give a shit attitude and see what happens. I'm currently reading the Hobbit and enjoying the TRUE story of Bilbo Baggins as it was meant to be told.

Here's to Peter Jackson's, "The Hobbit - the Desecration of Tolkien"   

And here is to JRR Tolkien's the Hobbit

[Norc]

So.... Much...... Text....... 

[Pettytyrant101]

A heartfelt crabbit rant of clarity and truth Sin, I salute you, or would do if there was a saluting smiley, but as there isnt this will have to do and I shall have to aim at PJ and the Coven instead-  

[bungobaggins]

Yay! Sin is back!  

[Sinister71]

Yeah Bungo i needed to take some time just to get my head straight. My hatred for many parts of AUJ was clouding my open mindedness towards the rest of the series and killing any enjoyment I would have gotten out of the rest of it. Even the parts that ARE reminiscent of Tolkien's book if I hadn't taken a small break. Although I was lurking I just was trying not to get too involved. As you can tell by my last post I'm still not overly thrilled with the deviations but you know what when I go in with the "I don;t give a shit" attitude it makes everything all better. Sadly I do care about the Hobbit as a story which is why I decided to start rereading it. So I could still enjoy the story that Tolkien wrote and push all of Jackson's made up nonsense out the door.

[Sinister71]

My thought for the day:

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[malickfan]

 

Hi Sin glad to see you back, and glad (?) to see you still have strong opinions about The Hobbit (I simply can't arsed with the films to care that much)-remember you are only disappointed because you care so much, something Jackson arguably dosen't.

I recently re read The Hobbit as well (the shiny rather awesome Annotated Version) and I'm sorely tempted by the new Jemina Caitlin illustrated edition.

Unfortunately I finally got round to reading the H.O.M.E properly...that is a bit more complex than The Hobbit I can tell you!

[bungobaggins]

My hatred for many parts of AUJ was clouding my open mindedness towards the rest of the series and killing any enjoyment I would have gotten out of the rest of it.

I know this feeling all too well.

Loving the new avatar, btw.  

[Sinister71]

Thanks Bungo

Malick I'm back to work (even though I'm still injured) and in a hotel room about 2 hours away from home so I figured rereading the book would be a great way to pass some time. Although this is the only board I am returning to. Although I did log into TORn yesterday surprisingly (well they only banned my home IP address) and will wait to see if I am still banned later this evening. I might post a couple posts just because I can LOL

[malickfan]

Bungo See, I'm jealous I simply couldn't connect with the film enough to like or hate most of it.

   sums it up

Sin, Glad to hear you are getting better   ouch though still injured? , I'm still a member of TORn but hardly ever post anymore (I didn't much to begin with) I'm neither enthusiastic enough about the films or knowledgeable about the books to really have anything interesting to say, and the frankly laughable Thorin fangirls (mostly seemingly long term members of the forum in their 40's) who seemed to have taken over the forum are doing my head in.

Oh well, I'm here at least.

Bree seems to have died an unoble death though,  

[RA]

My thought for the day:

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I think that's a motto we can all appreciate
Good to see you back  

[Sinister71]

Bree is still there I go in and clean up the spam every other day or so. I can't remember the last time Stu cleaned it up. But I try and keep it neat and tidy. But without anyone regularly posting it is a ghost town unfortunately

[malickfan]

That's a shame Sin. 

It's nice to know you are still battling on though, Stu dosen't seem to have posted in weeks, unfortunately the actual site didn't seem to get much hits (and frankly the articles were pretty dreadful), and I guess there isn't much joy to posting again and again with the same few people I do look in but I never really have much to say.

[Mrs Figg]

yep Bree is sunk. Drownded.  

I have long long since not cared about TH films, they are just half arsed parody, nothing to do with Tolkien so why get steamed? Its kind of amusing what new nonsense they come up with. The more utter drivel the more I am going to enjoy DOS for the cheesefest it promises to be.