continuing proofs America is wacko [2]

That goes to prove the power of the 'soundbite' media age we live in. People are not given the full arguments, the full picture, they just get a series of labels thrown at them.  

One might have thought an age of 24 hour news services would have increased analysis, debate and substance and not the opposite.

Had a look to see who does have Universal Health Care and who does not (this map does not include many Africans countries who have some form of National Health Care but it is not entirely universal)



"What's astonishing is how cleanly the green and grey separate the developed nations from the developing, almost categorically. Nearly the entire developed world is colored, from Europe to the Asian powerhouses to South America's southern cone to the Anglophone states of Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. The only developed outliers are a few still-troubled Balkan states, the Soviet-style autocracy of Belarus, and the U.S. of A., the richest nation in the world.
That brings us to another way that America is a big outlier on health care. The grey countries on this map tend to spend significantly less per capita on health care than do the green countries -- except for the U.S., where the government spends way more on health care per person than do most countries with free, universal health care. This is also true of health care costs as a share of national GDP -- in other words, how much of a country's money goes into health care. "- the Atlantic

Interesting to think about why health care costs so much in the US: or even more so why the government spends more on health care when it wasn't even universal!   This can only be medicaid and medicare, which are largely for the poor and retired. yes, we did have a form of universal health care, but it was a bit different from insurance. hard to define how it was different, I guess private versus government.

I should point out that the reason the republicans were wiling to do a shutdown is because their voting base is not so affected directly. Most government workers are democratic, with the exception of the military which is still getting paid.

I haven't read much about this and therefore what I write here might be a bit off the mark, but from what I gather it's got a lot to do with Obamacare and republicans who don't want it to happen. From a fjordian point of view I can't grasp why someone would oppose such a thing. How someone can oppose free health care, or at least some guarantee for basic health care, is beyond me. Our tax rates are high and we may complain about this from time to time (or even daily, as many do), but I'd rather pay double the taxes I pay now if it means I won't risk losing everything I own and every single penny that I got if I get seriously ill and need treatment. And now all these people in the federal sector find themselves without jobs and income because some selfish c***ts have issues with humane politics.

/rant over

Let's put it this way, if you could convince the American voting public that Obamacare is all about supporting freedom and guns, it would be accepted without question. 

I want to move to Canada.

Well Halfie, with Obamacare you can get shot for free! Wait... yes, go with that.

Well if you put it that way....

The statue of Liberty is CLOSED.

Well, being that you get inside by climbing up inside her dress, the moral virtue of American statuary has benefited enormously from the shutdown.

This is why I said both sides are at fault.  Sure, the Republicans started it which was wrong for a law that was already passed, but Democrats haven't tried very hard to compromise either.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/10/house-republicans-wait-at-a-table-for-dems-to-negotiate-budget/

House Republicans Wait at a Table for Dems to Negotiate Budget

By John Parkinson
Arlette Saenz

Oct 1, 2013 2:14pm
Eight House Republicans were appointed to negotiate a budget deal with Senate Democrats today and actually sat at a table to await some senators.
When no one showed up, the Republicans said it was an example of the Senate Dems’ refusal to negotiate to reach a deal.
House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, joining seven other conferees appointed earlier this morning by House Speaker John Boehner, said “there is a way” for Republicans and Democrats “to work through our differences” but complained that Democrats have refused to negotiate.
“As you can see, there’s no one here on the other side of the table,” Cantor, R-Va., said. “It’s fair to say none of us want to be in a shutdown, and we’re here to say to the Senate Democrats, come and talk to us. This is how we resolve our differences and can work our way out of this kind of situation.”
Cantor, who was heavily involved in deficit negotiations with Vice President Joe Biden in 2011, pointed to five separate attempts that the House has passed in recent days, and criticized Senate Democrats for defeating those efforts without broad debate.
“All of us here sitting at a table, waiting for the Senate Democrats to join us, so we can begin to resolve our differences,”  Cantor said. “The silliness that is caused by unwillingness to talk, is what we’re trying to avoid, and we invite the Senate Democrats to come and join us so we can resolve our differences and work our way out of this situation.”

Other than Cantor, Budget Chairman Paul Ryan, Ways and Means Chairman Dave Camp, Appropriations Chairman Hal Rogers and four other members of Appropriations – Reps. Tom Graves, R-Ga., Ander Crenshaw, R-Fla., John Carter, R-Texas, and Rodney Frelinghuysen, R-N.J. were appointed to negotiate with Democrats.
Ryan, the former vice presidential nominee, said the government will also reach its debt limit in about two weeks.
“Most budget agreements in the past have always involved debt limit increases,” Ryan, R-Wis., said. “We think that enforcing mechanism, just like the Budget Control Act that President Obama signed before, or like Bowles-Simpson, or like Gramm-Rudman or like the 1997 or 1990 budget agreements, all of those budget agreements came together because of debt limits. That’s what we think will be the forcing action to bring us — the two parties — together.”
The Senate dismissed the House invitation to negotiate a deal, voting  on party lines – 54 to 46 – to table the House’s message calling for a conference committee on the continuing resolution.
Ryan condemned Democrats for tabling the GOP’s motion to go to conference with the Senate.
“We want our colleagues to come here and work with us. We want to sit down and get this done. We don’t want to close the government down, we want it to open, but we want fairness,” he said. “We want fairness for all Americans. We don’t want to treat people differently. We want a budget agreement that gets the debt under control, we want to grow the economy, and that’s what we’re here to do.”
The standoff is over House Republicans’ demand that Obamacare be defunded or part of Obamacare by delayed. Senate Democrats refuse to allow Obamacare, which goes into effect today, be part of the budget negotiations.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid then took the floor to say the government shutdown amounts to a “good day for the anarchists.”
“Speaker Boehner and his band of Tea Party radicals have done the unthinkable.  They’ve shut down the federal government,” Reid said.
“It’s too late to avert the worst effects of the shutdown, but it’s not too late to send the federal employees back to work,” he said, calling on the House to vote on a clean spending bill.
But Senate Republicans were quick to blame the Democrats for the closing of government.
“Democratic leaders in Congress finally have their prize – a government shutdown that no one seems to want but them,” Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said.

I don't see why the Democrats should agree to a deal that reduces, or defunds the Affordable Health Care Act, it passed legally into law, it stood up to Court scrutiny, its law.
Everything else is just an attempt to undermine the democratic process and prevent a legally passed law taking effect.
I wouldnt compromise or talk about it either if I was the Democrats, why should they?- they already won the argument and the American people put them back into office for a second term to carry it out- its not like this was a big secret that they just sprung on the people after the election.

Having just watched several interviews in a row on this, and coming from a country where the National Health Service is a source of pride, there is something very surreal about watching seemingly intelligent people arguing against giving people universal health coverage.
It seems completely mad and very hard to understand. They just sound bonkers.

It's done differently here: insurance is still private but companies with more than 50 employees are now required to offer health insurance.  You can see this has a host of economic consequences.  But I'm not sure why it should be a problem because normally you still have to pay for an employer offered insurance plan, it's just vastly reduced in price due to collective bargaining.  I would think a worker would be given the option of either taken the employer offered plan or using the government options. That's something I have to look into.

But many companies have already started hiring more workers and putting them on part time so they don't have to offer them insurance.

Anyway, Republicans often balk at anything that makes life more difficult for business.  Also they balk at bigger government, government mandates, and what we call 'entitlements': things people come to expect from government as a privilege.  Republicans like to keep government trimmed down.

I suppose it doesnt affect fat cats in government, they can afford their health insurance, I bet they have never experienced being ill and not being able to pay for treatment. Its always the poor and vulnerable who get shafted. The NHS is a precious thing.

the closest thing we had before was that emergency rooms were required to take anyone, regardless of insurance. if you didn't have insurance they'd ask you to pay, and if you couldn't some paperwork would get it covered by government funds.

but that was only insurance. Slow death got you jack shit.

 Um... so Obama wants the most vulnerable people in America to have some sort of Health safety net? You know, like a lot of modern democracies have? That Obama must be a very bad President --- I guess... Of course, spending money on those who are least in a position to look after themselves is what might be seen as wasting money...  (Bailing out incompetent greedy dishonest banks that sent the country down the gurgler in the first place, of course, was money well spent ).

Ah, you understand conservatives so well.  No need for further explanation.

There may also be a little latent racism that no-one will admit to, but it's only a small part of the story. To be fair, conservatives were largely against the bail-out as well, for the same reasons they are against government money spent on health care. There's a lot of merit to the perils of a nanny-state, but I believe a proper mix of self-reliance and support is the best solution for a diverse population.

I resent the health care system in the USA  We never had health care here in Canada in which people that had money could get better care than others. It did not matter if you were a refugee or a king's son come here you had care. Now the American way is creeping in and it is so not fair. However, even if you cannot afford care, if your income is too little but you apply anyway, you have to, you are given a card and you do not have to pay anything until you make enough money, no matter how many people are in your immediate family. The general cost is fifty to sixty a month, but in one visitation you could save two thousand dollars.
If our government shut down, all of our representatives would merely have a good breakfast each day and then don on their toques, head to the nearest hockey rink and play against all those who did not vote for them, thereby relieving some of their stress and the opposing team's, go home, have their showers , eat a comforting large meal and have a six pack of Kokanee or Labatt's and wait for a solution to come out of thin air.
Anyone with guns would eventually be caught and beaten up by their neighbors and the guns destroyed and oh well. Marijuana for medicinal purposes has been legalized and billions spent on growing it,euthanasia is practised here and one premier of the province I used to live in , Alberta, got so fed up with paying out welfare that he gave each family a one way ticket to the province of his or her choice and shipped out. Then he made it so that all out of work persons show up at the regular office or the rural farming ones, work for the day and simply put the information given into a machine and out comes your pay and you don't need any help
Oh and in Quebec, the province of, they have had it with anyone who wears religious symbols of their faith and it is going to be against the law to wear it and you face losing your job. I favour this but I mean people are sometimes bound by their faith No knives around the neck and no turbans, and no yarmulkes and no burkas and ....
I deeply love my country, but if I was from somewhere else I would not probably move here.

From Fox News- I'm in a state of shock - how on earth did this end up Fox's top trending opinion?!!  
The world has turned on its head.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/30/five-reasons-americans-already-love-obamacare-plus-one-reason-why-theyre-gonna/?intcmp=trending

Fox News' website has a quite different tone from their cable channel. (I suspect, though don't know for certain, that they have different editors.) Their web news article are actually often quite neutral, and they have a few progressive-leaning opinion contributors too.

leelee wrote:I resent the health care system in the USA  We never had health care here in Canada in which people that had money could get better care than others. It did not matter if you were a refugee or a king's son come here you had care. Now the American way is creeping in and it is so not fair. However, even if you cannot afford care, if your income is too little but you apply anyway, you have to, you are given a card and you do not have to pay anything until you make enough money, no matter how many people are in your immediate family. The general cost is fifty to sixty a month, but in one visitation you could save two thousand dollars.
If our government shut down, all of our representatives would merely have a good breakfast each day and then don on their toques, head to the nearest hockey rink and play against all those who did not vote for them, thereby relieving some of their stress and the opposing team's, go home, have their showers , eat a comforting large meal and have a six pack of Kokanee or Labatt's and wait for a solution to come out of thin air.
Anyone with guns would eventually be caught and beaten up by their neighbors and the guns destroyed and oh well. Marijuana for medicinal purposes has been legalized and billions spent on growing it,euthanasia is practised here and one premier of the province I used to live in , Alberta, got so fed up with paying out welfare that he gave each family a one way ticket to the province of his or her choice and shipped out. Then he made it so that all out of work persons show up at the regular office or the rural farming ones, work for the day and simply put the information given into a machine and out comes your pay and you don't need any help
Oh and in Quebec, the province of, they have had it with anyone who wears religious symbols of their faith and it is going to be against the law to wear it and you face losing your job. I favour this but I mean people are sometimes bound by their faith No knives around the neck and no turbans, and no yarmulkes and no burkas and ....
I deeply  love my country, but if I was from somewhere else I would not probably move here.

That's an interesting mix of what I would deem good and bad, not so easy to tell which one you think is which!

I was horrified to learn that the government had secretly allowed euthanasia , the elderly, eighty babies were delivered alive and intact from abortions and left in pans for days to cry until they died, the display of faith , I can see that because it causes so much trouble, both my cross and my Star of David would have to be worn only at home, but to fire people who have to wear them, life is so hard already. The marijuana, have you EVER tried to maneuver your car when all the depressed housewives somehow get medicinal mary jane and forget they are even driving or the guys are playing air guitar as they pass and you notice they are not actually steering the car and you pull over from fear. I thought we were nuts enough One Prime Minister we had Pierre Elliot Trudeau, wore sandals with his suit, his wife Margaret had bi polar troubles, so she locked herself in the closet and would toke up and the secret service would find her totally slammed. And he was best friends with Castro and yet managed to win the Nobel Peace prize. After a British Diplomat was found murdered by the FlQ Trudeau said he was imposing martial law and a reporter said "you can't do that , it is a free country,,Our Prime Minister said "Watch me" and did just that. WE woke up to martial law and people were shot that did not obey the curfew. I'd like to go the Imladris for a few months Halfsie.

Canada is not the place I had been led to believe!  

good news for Italy, that toad Berlusconi has done an embarrassing U-turn when he realized his cronies had deserted him. The gvt is safe for now, lets hope this means his grip on power is over.