continuing proofs America is wacko [2]

I don't want to justify it. It's horrible.  But I'm sure where it comes from is America's love of civil lawsuits.  

If a violent patient gets injured while being restrained by an untrained  nurse or orderly, or the nurse or orderly gets their face smashed while doing something they weren't trained for,  the care facility is liable for damages.

I'd guess that the reason the police were called was simply because the institution had a policy to that effect to reduce their risk of a lawsuit.

One of the first steps in truly fixing health care would be fixing the propensity to civil suits.  But I think that would involve changing the general culture of victimhood.  I think this may be more in the legal culture than the popular culture, but I'm not sure. Not that holding people accountable is generally bad...

Here the possibility of being hit or attacked by someone elderly, no matter their exact age, is part and parcel of care work. Especially if someone has any form of dementia.
Its in the contracts you sign when you take the job. You cant sue for being hit by a patient.
Id rather be punched and kicked myself than bitten and scratched- you need hep-B jags because of those last two to be a care worker.
But I could count on one hand, and probably one finger, the amount of 96 year olds who presented a real physical danger to anyone beyond themselves.
No mater how hale a 96 year old its very rare they are a physical match for a man in his prime, let alone a load of cops in riot gear.
I just cannot conceive of any circumstances under which that would be justified.

You have it backwards: the fear is that the health care provider will injure an elderly person that's acting recalcitrant, and then they (or perhaps more likely their family) will sue the health care facility.

These type of lawsuits are big business here, which drives up insurance premiums. Doctors pay exorbitant insurance rates to protect against lawsuits. And so in turn health insurance goes up to cover the cost of the doctor's insurance.

Hold on, you are saying care staff call in the police when someone is violent so they dont get sued for restraining the person?
Thats mad. The job would be impossible as with a home full of dementia patients you will get some form of attack at least once a week.
Obviously there are strict rules about restraining people, even when they are violent, but you have to be able to prevent them causing injury to others or themselves if they are so agitated.

If I called the police to a Home I was working in because someone with dementia was being violent, they would tell me its not their business unless they attack a member of the public, its a mental health issue, and Im the mental heath worker there so bloody well get on with it.

I think there are different types of facilities, some deal with this all the time and are set up for it, some don't deal with it all the time and are running scared.

Police occasionally get called in here to assist with violent or potentially violent clients. Usually, patients comply with instructions of Staff when they see police. Sometimes police assist in restraining clients while they get given a needle to calm them down or assist in getting them locked down in a secure room. Put it down to times when there is a shortage of trained mental health staff available. (Sometimes it's because there are no or too few male staff on hand). Mental Health staff here don't accept they have to be assaulted, Petty, though I guess a lot of assaults happen unexpectedly. It's the obviously un-cooperative clients we get asked to assist with (sometimes). I find it hard to believe that anyone would use excesive force against a 95 year old man in the way it was depicted, though. Is it the whole story, or even a true story?

Mental Health staff here don't accept they have to be assaulted, Petty- Orwell

Im not talking full on assaults, but with dementia people can suddenly or unexpectedly lash out.
If you remember the opening to Home I wrote, that was based on something that actually happened, and he could have just as easily clobbered me.
It happens, regularly.
Usually its nothing more than an unexpected shortlived surge of violence, old ladies grabbing and digging nails into your arm when they get frustrated at their dementia is quite common, and one of the main reasons you need all the jags to protect yourself.
Most of the time its a matter of talking them down, or even just waiting, in extreme situations suitable medication will be administered. Physical restraint is very rarely required as usually attempts at physical contact only makes things worse.
Not once in my entire time as a care worker have I ever known the police to be called in to deal with it.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:If you remember the opening to Home, I wrote, that was based on something that actually happened, and he could have just as easily clobbered me..

If I don't get more 'Home' soon, I'll clobber you!  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:It happens, regularly.... Usually its nothing more than an unexpected shortlived surge of violence, old ladies grabbing and digging nails into your arm when they get frustrated at their dementia is quite common, and one of the main reasons you need all the jags to protect yourself.

Orwell: "...though I guess a lot of assaults happen unexpectedly." Ha! I thought as much!  

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Most of the time its a matter of talking them down, or even just waiting, in extreme situations suitable medication will be administered. Physical restraint is very rarely required as usually attempts at physical contact only makes things worse.

I imagine that's what our Mental Health workers do, too - but sometimes....

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Not once in my entire time as a care worker have I ever known the police to be called in to deal with it.

We don't like being involved either. Maybe it's got something to with Occupational Health and Safety in our Mental Health Organizations? Actually, maybe it's not lack of staff after all and police get sold a furphy here. I've attended a few times when there seemed to be a lot of staff (male and female) present. All I've really thought about it is, we get a call, we respond. Occupational Health then?   I might query that at work.

All I know is we get get called and trained or untrained (in Mental Health) we deal with whatever the situation might be. Any injuries (to any participant) have only been very minor though - a scratch or a graze here and there.  

Hot situations out on the street are the ones where I can imagine a taser or other force being used. I've never tasered anyone, but been close a few times. You're right (generally speaking) that most situations can be won with patience and engaged communication. I think sometimes police can read more danger into a situation than there really is. Adrenalin starts to pump. Of course, I'm always aware that real life is different than sitting in armchair discussing it later with all care and no responsibility - and possibly a degree in Sociology. I only have a subjective view on this, but I feel the more experienced the cop, the less probability that extreme force will be used. Some police do seem to escalate things, though not conscious they are doing so, caught up in the excitement. Usually younger cops, but sometimes highly strung older ones. I think I'm waffling now.

The main point is, I agree with you that trained Mental Health staff would seem the best people to deal with violent clients and police should be kept out of it unless there is excellent reason to call them in.

Blimey we agree. Again! {{{{Has someone been tampering with my buckie?!!!  }}}

{{{I admit I've been putting in a drop or two of "Commonsenseserum" - but all in a good cause. }}}

IT'S ANAAARCHYYYYYYYYYY!

Bye bye government.

Well I bet the GOP is just tickled pink.  

I'm not usually a big fan of the NY Daily news, but this made me smile.

OMG this is scary shit.  

I feel like I'm living in a 3rd world country ruled by tribal loyalties and bickering.  Has anyone compiled a list of obstructionist lawmakers on both sides?  We need to throw the bums out, from top the bottom.  The newbies need to be quivering in their boots if they can't cooperate.

surely to god the Republicans are not so bitter and twisted that they will let the debt ceiling ruin the economy. surely no-one is that stupid and stubborn? please tell me they are not.

I understand the whole "let's acknowledge that there are issues with both sides" thing, but in this case, it's pretty clearly the Congressional Republicans who are at fault.  There's no way a reasonable person could expect Obama and the Democrats to agree to the demands they had.  I'm sure the GOP didn't really expect it either, but they clearly feel that putting America's global economic credibility on the line (and inconveniencing millions of Americans) is acceptable if it means they get to score some political points with their base.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/09/here-are-the-gops-debt-ceiling-demands-and-they-are-insane/280012/

Highlights include:
- Suspending the debt ceiling for a year (will have horrible consequences for the country)
- One year delay on Obamacare individual mandate (after losing in both Congress and the Supreme Court)
- Spending reform in line with Paul Ryan's budget plan (lol)
- Let the Keystone XL pipeline move forward
- End net neutrality (which means you could pay more for certain kinds of Internet traffic, but big telecoms might pay less. see here)

The debt ceiling thing is even worse. It's ridiculous that we even have one, and the fact that the Congressional GOP thinks threatening to financially castrate the US government is an acceptable political strategy speaks volumes about them.

well if its any consolation the Italians are having their own mini-republican tantrum thing. for fuck sake the egos of these people. I say get rid of the lot of them. any person capable of derailing government for petty point scoring should be shown the door. they are rich its not them that suffer.

Far as I can tell this comes down to one fact.

Republicans know there is not a single modern western economy where the people have been given a national health system and then wanted to give it up.
They know if this gets through and gets a chance Republicans will never get rid of it entirely again.
Ten years from now they will be like the Conservatives in every other country- having to make promises they will safeguard the health service because saying the opposite just means perpetual opposition.


In a sense Cruz and his ilk are right from a Republican stand point- if they can't stop this before it gets going, they never will and they know it. So they are willing to go even this far and risk electoral ruin in the short term just to stop it.

the fuckers

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Far as I can tell this comes down to one fact.

Republicans know there is not a single modern western economy where the people have been given a national health system and then wanted to give it up.
They know if this gets through and gets a chance Republicans will never get rid of it entirely again.
Ten years from now they will be like the Conservatives in every other country- having to make promises they will safeguard the health service because saying the opposite just means perpetual opposition.


In a sense Cruz and his ilk are right from a Republican stand point- if they can't stop this before it gets going, they never will and they know it. So they are willing to go even this far and risk electoral ruin in the short term just to stop it.

Very discerning analysis, and right on target.

Related to what Petty mentions, Jimmy Kimmel demonstrating how people's opposition to health care reform comes down to labels rather than the substance of the reforms. Just like how people hate "welfare" but love "government help for the poor".