Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [3]

[Norc]

That's a nice way of thinking about death, Lance, like, why mourn when there is so much good to remember, i wish i could be able to do the same.


those dudes who did, i mean they tried to part the guy and wanted people to film!? they must've been high or something, normal people don't do that. they just don't. and as you said, it has nothing to do with religion or rase or anything, it has to do with being a person that is completely fucked up and cant function normally in a society.

[Lancebloke]

Looks like the EDL had to get themselves involved again. They aren't helping matters. Bunch of idiots!

[Mrs Figg]

Unfortunately I think calling them mad or anti-social misfits lets them off the hook. clearly they were instigated by religious motives. they were clear headed enough to apologize to the women, and were perfectly rational, and non violent towards the onlookers. this was targetted at just one man the symbol of the state, a soldier, it was a clear message. it says you are never safe, we will kill you on a quiet Street, its clever propoganda, these guys were obviously stooges, but behind them is religious fanatisism gone to extremes.

[David H]

this was targetted at just one man the symbol of the state, a soldier, it was a clear message. it says you are never safe, we will kill you on a quiet Street, its clever propoganda,

Sadly that statement is equally true of the hundreds or drone strikes happening routinely in Afghanistan and other countries right now. Think about what it must be like to have a missile drop out of the sky with no warning and blow up your neighbor's house and family because he's a soldier.

I can't make myself see this as religious in any way other than the foxhole faith that many soldiers have. However it's easy for me to see it as a political, or even personal.

[the truth]

I agree wit you all, you cant blame religeon or race , it really stems from being a product of your environment , and IMO brainwashing of a sort , people react to actions and unfortunately unreasonable people react very badly , I dont really think you can blame it on lack of education either , look at what the U.S. Govt. does with drone strikes , this action causes a very adverse reaction by the people affected by it . I really think one of the main problems is alot of people have no respect for theyre fellow man

[Pettytyrant101]

I really think one of the main problems is alot of people have no respect for theyre fellow man- Truth

Have humans ever had that? Sadly history would seem to say no.

I can understand the sort of appaling violent attck that happened if it was someone from a Muslim country, whose family had been wiped out in a bloody drone massacre or such like- that sort of reaction is understabdable then, even if its no less awful.

But these guys seem London born and bred, the worst thing theyve probably seen is an overly long queue at McDonalds.
How someone like that gets to the same levels of hatred and violence as someone genuinely pushed over the edge by personal loss I cannot fathom.

[David H]

I can understand the sort of appaling violent attck that happened if it was someone from a Muslim country, whose family had been wiped out in a bloody drone massacre or such like- that sort of reaction is understabdable then, even if its no less awful.

But these guys seem London born and bred, the worst thing theyve probably seen is an overly long queue at McDonalds.
How someone like that gets to the same levels of hatred and violence as someone genuinely pushed over the edge by personal loss I cannot fathom.

Of course I don't know anything about them and it's only a pointless exercise to speculate, but this is Forumshire so why not...

Hatred is only one common motive for violence. Fear is another. But I think a far more likely one in this case is just showing off. People can do horrible crazy stuff to try to impress other people if they feel like an outsider and want to be accepted into the "cool group". The media needs to stop giving so much press to these people unless we want to keep feeding the trend.

[azriel]

Showing off & being accepted by those around you is almost a "right of passage" for some people, but, I beg to differ on the grounds that, this person took it to the extreme. Taking a life, & in such a bloody way, is more than trying to be accepted. Its near enough demonic. Taking life IMO has got to be the ultimate final straw ! I would consider attack only if my family & very good friends (& my pussy-wumpkins!) were being threatened themselves,but even then its not a decision to be taken lightly or easily. Its fooking hard ! So what extreme thoughts encouraged this person to do this ?? I do agree that the media should change tack on these horrible events.

[Mrs Figg]

its probably brain washing and indoctrination of weak minded individuals by clever recruiters. the sort that send kids with bombs strapped to their bodies to police stations in Afghanistan.

[David H]

I was never worried that you would do anything like this, andI'm not trying to minimize the evil, Azriel.

I was thinking of some of the racist violence in the South here, and some of the Native American massacres, both by whites on Indians and Indians on whites. If you get down to the historical facts, it was often young males in each group who were trying to "prove they were men" who committed the first killings, and often in a public way just like this. And often (though not always) to the horror of the old men they were hoping to impress.

I am really trying not to follow this story, but the radio just reported that these men were of Nigerian families and recent converts to Islam. I've worked closely with Nigerians in the fish canneries and I know how important prestige is in the culture, and how happy they can be to take physical risk for personal honor (but that's another story). I'm afraid I can imagine some of my Nigerian and Filipino friends doing extreme things if they felt they needed to prove their honor.

[Pettytyrant101]

The fear now is of a counter reaction.
I feels like bits of England are a powderkeg right now, with growing disquiet about 'foreigners' and particuarly muslims, and tis is just the sort of bloody stupid, senseless act which can put a flame to these places.
There were bad race riots in England in the 1980's- they could very easily come back.

[Mrs Figg]

rivers of blood

[Lancebloke]

The whole situation here is not a great one. While the economy is supposedly picking up, it has still left a lot of big holes in lots of communities across the country (I live in the london bubble so thankfully not affected me). So people are already feeling bad. Added to that is now the perceived 'foreign invasion' who are not only 'taking our jobs' but also now killing our soldiers in the streets.

Like petty said... bit of a powderkeg that probably wouldnt take too much more to turn in to something very nasty.

[Mrs Figg]

I hope the Muslim religious leaders in the Uk try to stamp out extremism when they find it or suspect it, they have a responsibility to do so. They are privileged in that they are in close contact with their congregations, they need to sort out their young men if they see them being recruited by jihadists or approached to go on these terrorist training camps in Pakistan. and Christian leaders have a duty to instill this is not Islam that is at fault but people using it as a political means.

[Pettytyrant101]

On eof the few 'good' things to have come out of this horrbileness has been the speed with which the Muslim organisations have notonly come out to condemne it, but have been going on TV saying these people are not muslims as their actions are against God.
And I dont recall hearing them go that far before in their condemnatioon of terrorist attacks carrried out by members of their community.

[Mrs Figg]

yes it always struck me they were rather lukewarm before, they condemned violence but not with any real force or hard words. I read one article by a Muslim that said the Elders had their heads in the sand and needed to wake up before it was too late.

[azriel]

Well,they better come up with a convincing plan ! Or else every atrocity will be laid at the feet of Muslims, whether guilty or not.
"I was never worried that you would do anything like this, andI'm not trying to minimize the evil, Azriel."
I know David ! You think logically but your compassionate also

[Mrs Figg]

its a chance for everyone to put their differences aside and work towards solving this mess. kids need to feel secure enough not to want to turn and bite the hand that feeds them. these two were British born, the UK hardly a 3rd world country, hardly without hope for a future when you consider their parents left Nigeria for a better life. its baffling how they could have so much hate, they have never lived in Nigeria or suffered bombing in Afghanistan, where do they get this hate from? they were Christians, why would they suddenly become radicalized extremists, they must have been indoctrinated by someone, and these people need expelling, not the dimwit kids that believe all the hate shit.

[Pettytyrant101]

The EDL (English Defence League are making the most of recent events, sadly.
They are rallying in Newcastle right now.

'About 1,500 people are attending a demonstration organised by the English Defence League (EDL) in Newcastle, Northumbria police said.
Police acknowledged there were "heightened community concerns" following Drummer Rigby's death but said they expected the day to pass peacefully. '- BBC

Not so sure Id have the polices confidence about that.

[Pettytyrant101]

Interesting turn of events- last night BBC Newsnight interviewed a man who said he was a very close friend of the guy who murdered the soldier.
In the interview he claimed MI5 (Uk secret service) had approached the murderer several months ago with the aim of recruitng him.
By the time the programme (which is broadcast live) had ended- MI5 had turned up at the BBC studios and arrested him under the Terrorism Act.

[Pettytyrant101]

A nice reminder from the British Sikhs-

[Pettytyrant101]

I'm sorry to have o say this and mean it- but thank God I dont live in England where the Tories have control of the NHS.

'A cap on the number of times patients can visit their GP in a year is being considered by the Conservative Party, it emerged yesterday.
The paper also asks whether evening and weekend appointments with GPs and consultants are a "luxury the country cannot afford".
The revelation follows the appointment earlier this month of Nick Seddon as Downing Street health policy adviser. Formerly of the think-tank Reform, he has suggested NHS cuts and charges for GP visits.'- The Independent

Whatever happened to access based on clinical need? How can it be a health service free at the point of need as originally envisioned if you your GP charges you?
If this is the route the English want for their health servie the sooner we get Independence up here and away from such threats to its core values the better.

[Mrs Figg]

evening surgeries are not a luxury if you fooking work. or do they want you to take time OFF work to go to the doctor? wtf are they thinking.

[Pettytyrant101]

How much money they and their mates can make flogging off the NHS- far as I can tell anyway.

[Orwell]

I should not like to cause a disturbance, Petty, but will Scotland be able to afford a NHS once you're independant? And it's a serious question btw. (Blimey! )