Doctor Who [4]

I'm beginning to feel we are treading old ground.

Thanks for clearing up your view of River Mrs Figg and that it is based on personality not age. (The dual standard to age diff relationships intrigues me which is why I asked.)

I happen to agree Rose was important in the development of the Doc in NuWho, and I got why she fell for him, I just never quite bought him being in love with her. Incredibly fond yes, Love...no.

I always felt her last scene where the Doc was about to say something was either him telling her what she needed to hear or a cop out by the writing team to give fans what they wanted without actually doing it.

I think the River being needy thing is an interesting idea, but I always read that another way. When we meet River she has this lifetime of history with the Doctor, of a man she fell in love with, who shaped her life, as we have since discovered. She is sure of his future feelings for her and used to his support, she acts accordingly.

What I expected was that it would reverse, with River being increasingly different and the Doctor more openly attracted and expecting her support. We didn't get that due to the timeline shift in a good man goes to war. Thinking about that now I believe that this has undermined my expectations somehow as the basis for Rivers affection is not this wonderful marvellous man dropping swooping into her life and knowing her, but the conditioning of her childhood and her own mothers fascination with him... ermmmm....

Just curious why you believe Moffat has dismissed Rose and others..... it seems to me that becaue of those interactions the Doctor has been able to evolve as he has now.

Rose was certainly important to the Doctor- I quite agree there- she was his first companion after the traumatizing events of the Time War.
She helped him find himself again and to find his wonder again (however temporary)- not unlike how Clara/Oswin is helping the Doctor again now after recent events.
But him falling in love with her- when she is barely more than a toddler by his races standards? I never bought it, it never felt genuine to me.
Whereas I can see the attraction for him in River- she is a mystery wrapped in an enigma- he knows before he really gets to know her that she loves him so much she will give her life to save his and just so their future together happens.
She knows everything about him, including his true name before he even knows who she is- I can see how that would appeal to him.

'Just curious why you believe Moffat has dismissed Rose and others..... it seems to me that becaue of those interactions the Doctor has been able to evolve as he has now. Kafria.

Maybe its because it feels like Rose doesnt/has never existed, in Moffats world. Moffat didnt like Rose, so he never lets the Doctor mention her. I dont think the Doctor has evolved since Rose, he is much more alien and cold as the Matt Smith incarnation. I think he is less sympathetic towards humans than before, and uses them to his own ends without much qualms. Like abandoning Amy on various occasions.

This is my opinion and I dont really feel the need to back myself up with video clips or justifications.

Maybe its because it feels like Rose doesnt/has never existed, in Moffats world.

I would argue this is the same for any of the previous companions, but I can see how this would seem a denial of Rose and her particular effect on the Doctor if you feel that he did fall in love with her.

I have no problem with this being your opinion... we all differ after all. One of the most fascinating things about talking with others is how they can see exactly the same show or read the same book and interpret things differently. We truely must each live in our own unique world, made by our interpretation of the things we see and experience.

He has mentioned Rose several times- more often than he has mentioned Donna, Martha or any other person from the RTD era. (anyone spot both Pond and Rose made an appearance in the xmas episode?)

I agree the Doctor is less sympathetic towards humans- but thats not new- the Rose thing was the unusual thing- he is much more like he was in classic Who now.
That I am sure is quite deliberate as Moffat has been slowly but surely resetting the show since he took over- to, in my view, repair some of the damage done to the character and show during the RTD era.

The 7th Doctor was much more manipulative than 11 is towards his companions for example, and the 6th could be positively cruel- this is a part of his personality that has surfaced before in previous incarnations.

I think the reason I in general prefer moffat Who to RTD Who, is that Moffat Who feels like a true continuation of classic Who to me, whereas RTD's run feels more like the 8th Doctors tv movie appearance- Who, but not as we know it- sort of Who -lite.

I think it should also be remembered in the words of Davros about the Doctor that he "is always running, never looking back out of shame."
And when 11 is dying and calls up the TARDIS interface and asks for someone he likes, and it picks Rose he responds, "Oh thanks guilt", it then changes to Donna and he says "more guilt!" and ends with the Doctor saying exasperated "There must be someone left in the universe I haven't screwed up yet."

And in the 10th Doctor episode Family Renunion when he meets Sarah Jane again for the first time since the 4th Doctor run, a large part of that is about how the Doctor never goes back, how, although he keeps an eye on his former companions he essentially abandons them (assuming they survive long enough to abandon!).

So I dont think there is anything unusual in him not dwelling on or mentioning the past, his past is full of painful choices,loss and death.

this article sums it up better than me. its referenced. Global Comment.


The Ruining of River Song
article_image: http://globalcomment.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/450px-Weaping_Angel.jpg
gc_contributor: T.F. Charlton

Doctor: River, you know my name. You whispered my name in my ear! There’s only one reason I would ever tell anyone my name. There’s only one time I could. – Forests of the Dead, 4

Perhaps no plot arc is more illustrative of Steven Moffat’s “woman problem” than the implosion of Doctor Who’s River Song. Moffat has taken River from her initial appearance as a self-possessed, independent woman who challenged the Doctor intellectually and emotionally, to a codependent figure whose entire life from birth to death is tragically defined by her association with the Doctor. In the process, Moffat wasted an opportunity to push both the Doctor and the show into new and exciting territory, and embraced some of the worst tendencies of the show when it comes to gender and power.

River was introduced “Silence in the Library/Forests of the Dead” (4.8/4.9) as a character who at some future point would have a relationship of unprecedented trust and intimacy with the Doctor – that is, the sort of relationship the Doctor had spent centuries carefully guarding himself from. The Doctor openly scoffed at River’s claim that her more advanced sonic screwdriver was a gift from his future self: “I don’t give my screwdriver to anyone.” River’s retort – “I’m not anyone” – was amply proven when she revealed her knowledge of the Doctor’s true name, information no other character on the show has ever been privy to.

Whatever her precise link to the Doctor would turn out to be, it seemed that River would be a fundamentally new sort of character on Who: someone the Doctor would “trust completely.” River’s singularity in this respect was what made her sacrifice to save the Doctor and their future together (“Forests of the Dead”) so emotionally impactful – both the Doctor and viewers felt the weight of her loss without even knowing her yet.

This suggested dramatic future growth for the Doctor’s character, and a transformation in the nature of a show that at its core has been about a man on the run from the responsibilities and vulnerabilities that permanent attachments bring. The Doctor’s time with his previous companions had always had an expiration date, and he’d always avoided making himself fully emotionally available. The idea that the Doctor would at some future point be compelled to grow, to stop running, to settle down and be mutually invested in another person was an exciting prospect.

River was also a welcome addition to a show with a tendency to write the women in the Doctor’s life as young, inexperienced, and pining away for him in asymmetrical relationships (Donna Noble was also a refreshing exception to this). River’s self-confidence and refusal to be cowed by the Doctor were striking. If anything, as Amy Pond notes, the Doctor seemed uncharacteristically intimidated by her: “The way [River] talks to you, I’ve never seen anyone do that. She’s kind of like, you know, ‘Heel, boy’” (“Time of Angels,” 5.4).

Seasons four and five River appeared to be a seasoned time traveler and scientist in her own right, dropping in unannounced, coming and going as she pleased, much like Doctor himself. The Doctor was repeatedly frustrated by her refusal to tell him who she was, by the fact that she lied and knew things he didn’t – again, traits she shared in common with him. Added to her ability to regenerate, this made River the closest thing New Who had to a Time Lady, and more specifically, a female version of the Doctor. In all these respects River seemed poised to reverse, or at least even out, a stereotypically gendered power imbalance between the Doctor and his companions and push the show into uncharted territory.

Rather than exploring this territory, Moffat spent season 6 systematically dismantling everything that made River an approximate equal of the Doctor’s. He engineered River’s first meeting with the Doctor (in her timeline) such that the power is placed firmly back in the Doctor’s hands: she’s a teenager, far less self-assured and savvy than the River we first met:

When I first met the Doctor, a long, long time ago, he knew all about me. Think about that. An impressionable young girl, and suddenly this man just drops out of the sky, and he’s clever, and mad, and wonderful, and knows every last thing about her. Imagine what that does to a girl. (“Day of the Moon, 6.2)

But the major downhill turn for River’s character came in “Let’s Kill Hitler”. In one go Moffat turned River into a brainwashed weapon whose entire purpose in life was to kill the Doctor, and stripped her of her ability to regenerate almost immediately after revealing it. She inexplicably gave her regenerations up to save the life of the Doctor, whom she didn’t even know at that point. In the same episode we learn that River’s archaeology degree, all her learning, is only a means for her to track down and learn more about the Doctor.

The season 6 finale (“The Wedding of River Song”) completed River’s transformation into a character pathologically obsessed with a man who, far from returning her affections, seems to view her as a nuisance. The Doctor rushes her through a sham marriage ceremony – shortly after telling her that he doesn’t want to marry her – without even informing her of what he’s doing, much less obtaining her prior consent (he does manage to pause to demand her parents’ consent, however). The happy event features the Doctor “barking orders at her to ‘do as she’s told’ after yelling…that she embarrassed him.”

We also learn that The Doctor, River’s now-husband, has allowed her to be set up to serve an unknown number of years in prison for the crime of appearing to murder him. She is imprisoned, in short, so the Doctor can maintain his freedom to lark about the universe. Her consolation prize is to be able to slip out some nights to travel the universe – with the Doctor, of course. Far from an equal partner and confidante, River turns out to be the Doctor’s hapless shadow, willing to sacrifice everything (even the universe, and ultimately, her life) to be with an emotionally distant man who often doesn’t seem to like her much, much less love her.

The problem here isn’t just that the River of season 6 is completely out of step with the River we got to know in the previous two seasons. It’s also that Moffat clearly has no clue that what he’s writing is a tragedy, and not the grand love story with a more-or-less happy ending he seems to think it is.

This is part of a broader problem with gender and power in Moffat’s Whoverse. Under previous show runner Russell T. Davies (RTD), the imbalance between Doctor and his companions was tempered by the fact that the companions got to live stories that women are rarely allowed on television. They unapologetically indulged their curiosity and wanderlust, and were depicted as admirable and brave for wanting to see and know more of the
of the world.

Moffat, by contrast, has defaulted to limited, domestic dramas for the female characters on the show – Amy and Rory’s love and family woes, and the mystery of whether River married or murdered the Doctor. Women are interesting and sympathetic only insofar as they enamored with the Doctor. It’s hard to imagine Moffat writing, for example, the epic conclusion to Martha Jones’s arc, particularly her decision to salvage her dignity and leave a Doctor who took her for granted and made her feel “second best” (“The Last of the Time Lords,” 3.13).

Part of the trouble is that Moffat is fascinated with the dark side of the Doctor, but seemingly unable to entertain any real consequences for his character, no matter how egomaniacal he becomes. In the RTD era, the Doctor’s adventuring ultimately came at a cost, not only to his companions and whomever else got swept up in his path, but to the Doctor himself. Every finale saw the Doctor suffer some major consequence for his interference in individual and intergalactic affairs, whether death and regeneration (“The Parting of the Ways,” “The End of Time”) or the loss of people dear to him (“Doomsday,” “The Last of the Time Lords,” “Journey’s End”).

There’s no such denouement for the Eleventh Doctor, Moffat’s Doctor. He remains an impulsive, dangerous “mad man” who “[makes] people a danger to themselves” (Rory, “Vampires in Venice”); nevertheless, the mystery and ultimate resolution of both season finales under Moffat have revolved around how the Doctor escapes scot-free, not only from the traps his numerous enemies lay for him, but also from the logical emotional consequences of the havoc he’s wreaked in the lives of his companions. The Doctor remains a “good man” – the “best man” – and a noble hero in the eyes of the Ponds-Williams clan, unquestionably adored by its women especially, despite all he’s cost their family.

The upshot seems to be that River Song cannot exist as she first appears in a universe created by someone as captivated by singular male genius as Moffat (cf Sherlock). Her curiosity, her passion, her intellect – all of these end up being applied exclusively to her obsession with the Doctor. Indeed, her entire family’s existence is inseparably bound to the Doctor’s fate and whims. Moffat depicts a god-like Doctor who behaves in increasingly self-absorbed and destructive fashion, without suffering any permanent loss or alienation from his companions, and thus turns the Doctor from the morally ambiguous figure he’s always been into a morally indefensible one.

Uh ... I'm sorry for asking for suggestions.

Its a full and frank exchange of views alright...

Just a side note...Watching Time of the angels (River Amy MS Doctor and the weeping angels) happens to be on watch today.

River has just asked how early this is for the doctor and he has said very early... Her reply
"So you don't know who I am yet?" suggests that the events we have recently seen with her happen early in the Dcotors relationship with her.

This suggests that the wedding is just the beginning and there is a lot more of this developing relationship to come.

theres nothing as ubergeeky as Dr Who geeks Eldo. it kind of brings out the in me.

I would rather have had it in your words Mrs Figg, but nevertheless I shall take on this unknown blogger!

Firstly they seem to be under the impression the River who appears in Silence in the Library is an RTD creation- Moffat wrote that episode and created River- so the idea Moffat has somehow become a women hater inbetween that episode and recent ones is foolish. Or that he has changed the River premise.
One of the most striking things on rewatching the Library episodes is how well it all fits with later stories about River.

'whose entire life from birth to death is tragically defined by her association with the Doctor'- this is largely true of Rose, Donna, Amy and a host of others whose lives the Doctor has completly whacked off course in a detrimental fashion- Amy is the perfect example of this- he is riddled with guilt and a burden of duty towards Amy becausse he screwed her up from when she was a child.

The next two paragraphs are basically complaining the story didnt turn out as the blogger wanted it too!

'In one go Moffat turned River into a brainwashed weapon whose entire purpose in life was to kill the Doctor'- um, thats kind of the main plot- the Silence set up Amy so the Doctor could not resist being curious by her and taking her along in order to get to the creation of River so they could manupulate a child born in the votrex to kill the Doctor before he gets to the fields of Trensolore and answers the ultimate question (its 42, youd think they'd know that!).
However given River twice fights and overcomes her own conditioning- going as far as to risk all of time and space rather than let the Doctor die, and sacrificing her own regenerations so he can live. I hardly see how it is illustrative of weak women.
She is not forced into any of these choices, she comes to them herself- particualrly in Lets Kill Hitler where the realsation that the woman the Doctor has been talking of with so much love and respect is in fact herself in the future.
"Is he worth it?" she asks her parents. Again I dont think a daughter turning to her parents to ask their advice somehow makes her weaker, just more human.

As to her getting her archeology degree to track down the Doctor- well seems a good way to go about finding a time traveller to me. She still had to pass, put in the work. And she clearly has a genuine passion for it and she presumably choose the profession herslef- not like the Doctro enrolled her.

'obsessed with a man who, far from returning her affections, seems to view her as a nuisance'- Id like to see some proof of this in actual episodes, I havent seen any incidents of him viewing her as a nuisance. He doenst like being the one in the dark for once thats true, but its got nothing to do with him finding her a nuisance as the vid posted above amply demonstrates. The only way it can apply is that he is annoyed sometimes at the fact River is in a position to tease him about stuff he doesnt yet know- usually the role he himself is in with other people- River just gives him a tastes of his own medicine.

The happy event features the Doctor “barking orders at her to ‘do as she’s told’ after yelling…that she embarrassed him.”- did this blogger watch the episodes?
The Doctor is embarrassed becuase he never has and never does seek gratiude, or reward- he is embarrassed River would ask the rest of the universe what they thought of him choosing to give up, embarrassed he asked for help on his behalf- gratitude and recognition are emotions he has a hard time dealing with, especially directed at himself. And he is also angry at this ,oment in the episode- he had a plan to sort all this afterall but he cant becuase River, out of love for him, refuses to play her part- which means the Doctor will have to share his secret- that he will survive- increasing the risks to everyone he knows including River. He wanted it, out of necessaity to be a secret from everyone. He was even prepared to let Amy think he was dead, hence just before the second, would be fatal shot, he turns to Amy and says "I'm sorry."

'Moffat, by contrast, has defaulted to limited, domestic dramas for the female characters on the show'- Amy domestic! Theyve got to be kidding. And what about Rose and her entire family and idiot boyfriend Mickey? It was very domesticated- they spent most of the episodes in her family council house in London!

'She is imprisoned, in short, so the Doctor can maintain his freedom to lark about the universe. Her consolation prize is to be able to slip out some nights to travel the universe – with the Doctor, of course.'
- its more than implied that River comes and goes from her prison cell as and when she likes- she just always goes back. In A good Man goes to War all the sirens are going off and River appears, picks up the guards phone and tells them they can swich off the alarms she is breaking in not out and proceeds to order her breakfast. Or when the panicking guard phones in declaring "Its Doctor Song, shes doing it again (escaping)"

'Moffat is fascinated with the dark side of the Doctor, but seemingly unable to entertain any real consequences for his character'- this is the most astonishing line in the whole piece- I can only assume the blogger has not in fact been watching at all.
The entire season five/six/ seven story has been about the Doctor facing the consequences of his own actions over hundreds of years- the whole thing- how could they miss this?
From the very start of the Amy story its about the unforseen consequence the Doctor's life can have on other people.
This is why we have Rory saying "You have no idea how dangerous you make people to themselves"- the Doctor didnt choose to go into retirment out of choice- he did it becuase he is broken and could no longer face the consequence sof his own actions. And those actions in NUwho certainly include the fate of Rose and Donna as well as Amy and Rory.
I mean Rivers entire speech at Demons Run- "Did you ever think you would become this? The man who can make whole armies turn at run just at the mention of his name"- she is mocking and chastising him and what is actions have led to.
River herself is a living product of consequence- when the Doctor wonders outloud why thy want a timelord as a weapon Madame Vastra replies, "well, they have seen you" and the Doctor is both shocked and horrified at the realisation- the whole thing is about conseqences-my mind boggles how someone could miss this and still be watching the show with working eyes and ears.

'ultimate resolution of both season finales under Moffat have revolved around how the Doctor escapes scot-free'- see above, were they even watching? That Moffat, unlike RTD, runs his themes as undercurrents through entire series, rather than ignoring them most of the series and then bringing it all up in the final is a difference of writing style- but to say the 11th doesnt have consequneces for his actions is simply unbelievable.

And if they think the Doctors action have always been moral, or morally defensile there is hell of a lot of Who they clearly have not watched- how about multiple genocide? Manipulation? Lying? He has done all these things.

Mrs Figg is right Eldo- if you innocnetly start up a Who converation be prepared for the consequences!!

A round up of US press reaction to the xmas episode-

Spoiler:

Anyone else seen the xmas ep yet other than Amarie and Kafria? (its on the skydrive)

AI (approval Index) scores are in- it got an 87- making it the second highest rated show of the day (behind Downton Abbey on 90)- This year's score is higher than the majority of the previous Christmas Day specials with last year's The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe scoring 84. Only the first part of the Tenth Doctor's swan song, The End of Time- Part One, equaled the score of 87.

Somthing I noticed whilst rewatching the xmas ep looking for clues-

Spoiler:

so the who ep is on ur hirdrive? skydrive whatever?

yup-but just for a few days as I need the space.

I really want to watch it.

So download and watch it- if you can watch it on a live stream you should be able to wacth it on vid.

oki, thanx ^^ and still safe ?

Very. ..probably.

couldn't find it. also, what was the forumshire present? sorry, buckie, goldfish today.

who is in the for odo folder, in a folder called DW- the present is in the folder called throughcut

"This item might not exist or is no longer available"

lol forget it. found it.

what's the TH..? i don't understand...