Things that are making you crabbit! [2]

well obviously if you walk around town in three in the morning with your arse hanging out. you are going to attract pervs, but ANY women even if she was wearing a boiler suit is game. its not so much WHAT she wears as the fact she is female therefore easy prey. old women get raped, kids get raped, its not about sex its about power. so I reject its a womans fault that if she wears a mini skirt she is 'asking for it'. that way the Taliban can argue if a woman isnt 'modest' men will not touch her. Thats BOLLOCKS. women get raped no matter what they wear.

with all due respect.

absolutely right Mrs Figg.

During the protests in Egypt there was the attack on the american journalist. Some tried to say it was due to how she dressed as a westerner that influenced it. It later transpired that assaults on women across the board were increasing, even those in traditional dress.

Recent news coverage from mumbi has been horrifying, not simply due to the rape case - which happened on a public bus at four in the afternoon and the woman was travelling with a friend, not on her own - but because it was only being investigated due to the fact the woman is from a middle class family. The stats show a sexual assault occurs every 14 hours in the city, a rape every 18 hours, yet most are unreported or uninvestigated.

And the more I think about it the more I disagree with the 'its nature' argument. It comes about purely through thinking of woman as objects that men have a right to take what they want from, a demonstration of power and superiority, no more.

So is there no limit on how a woman should appear in public? No reposnsibilty upon her at all? (Not for being raped- obviously she has no responibilty for that) but for knowing it will attract attention wanted and unwanted? And delibretly dressing to attract attention.

I have never really bought the line often heard that women dress to please themselves not men- mainly becuase the women who tend to say that, by a remarkable coincidence, wear clothes that would in fact be very pleasing to a man.

{{I might need a bigger sofa}}}

And delibretly dressing to attract attention.

This is something I am not so sure about...yes there are some women and young...erm...ladies that go out dressed in tiny little outfits to get attention. In truth I find this a little sad.

But I think actually most won't think about it in that way.

Watching teenagers grow up has coloured my view. girls often wear what is fashionable with little thought to how revealling or provocative it may be considered to be. They just don't see it. They truely don't do it to be admired by men, many are completely unaware it could be seen as such.

I didn't, yet I am aware I am becoming increasingly conservative in my own dress. And it isn't about not wanting to attract attention, but a desire to be content with the image I see in the mirror.

Let me flip this slightly.

Would you ever say about a bloke who had been raped that he should have been more careful about what he wore?
Is it alright for a woman to grope a man if he is prancing about in tight shorts? Dancing on the stage in the club and striping off his shirt?
I don't think anyone would, I think the instinct reaction is 'thats different' but it shouldn't be!

A final point, and I am not trying to be argumentative here, just sharing a personal thought. I think it may be difficult for men to understand the slight paranoia of women. Do you ever think twice about going out on an evening in winter becasue its dark? Plot your route by the street lights? Always make sure you have car keys in hand on a night before you leave whatever establisment your in, hold them in your hand so you can get straight in the car? It isn't an overriding principle, it doesn'tstop me doing things, I don't over worry. But it is a constant shadow in the background... because I'm a woman someone may assume they have certain rights? After all I'm out after dark, without a man and my ankles are showing.

Would you ever say about a bloke who had been raped that he should have been more careful about what he wore?- Kafria

Well I wouldnt want to be put in a jail cell with a few burly inmates wearing a skintight sleeveless t-shirt and a pair of trunks- no.

Ok that s abit of an exageration- male rape is still comparitively rare compard to female. As a man you are less likely to consider the possibilty when dressing (I never have). Men tend to dress either for comfort, ease, work or to delibretly attract attention conciously when going out on the pull. Its pretty compartmentalised.
Also men tend to think that f it was ever to happen we could fight off the attacker- you dont get to be a man by thinking you cant take on any threat offered by other men, no mattter how misplaced that self belief might in fact be.

As to a woman groping a man- I couldnt count the amount of times at work I have had my arse slapped or pinched by female coworkers- and thats not some statement about my inherent sexual magnetism- they do it to everyone, particualr women of an older genration like to do it, they often cackle too.
Now I would never consider at work slaping a female coworker on the arse just because she had bent over to pick something up, or pinch her prosterier just because the opportunity was there- and if I did I would be viewed with either supsicion or a sexual harrassment charge.
I have never taken any offence in it myself, but its certainly a double standard on womens side of things.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:all women should dress as they pleaces and no one should tell em what to wear and what not to wear.- Norc

To brave the storm and stick a head above the parapet here Norc I would say its not about telling someone what to wear but dressing in a manner that is concious of the actual nature of the human race.
You wouldnt wear a meat jacket to goon a lion safari afterall.

well...... it depend. Of course, dress for the occation, but if a wanna wear a see-through top, then hell, why not (althouhg I wouldn't).

what I meant to say was, one shouldn't feel the need to change what u want to present yourself as, wearing or anything, by other peoples sexist viwes..

Mrs Figg wrote:well obviously if you walk around town in three in the morning with your arse hanging out. you are going to attract pervs, but ANY women even if she was wearing a boiler suit is game. its not so much WHAT she wears as the fact she is female therefore easy prey. old women get raped, kids get raped, its not about sex its about power. so I reject its a womans fault that if she wears a mini skirt she is 'asking for it'. that way the Taliban can argue if a woman isnt 'modest' men will not touch her. Thats BOLLOCKS. women get raped no matter what they wear.

totally agree. Please. Fathers and Mothers. Teatch ur boys not to rape. how hard can that be? it's not about female's provoking it. that's a load of men bullshit. honestly.

I think if you assume humans are not some divine created creature but just another animal-these things get simpler.

In the animal world females display in order to attract a mate- its simple.
Humans as far as I can see do the same thing with more complications- but its basically still the same animal pattern we are built on.
Ergo if a women is 'displaying' in a way that to men is sexually provocotive more men will notice and react- by flirting, chatting up ect- all fine.
However, as animals some men have a chemical makeup that is high in things like tetosterone.
Women gibber on about their hormones all the time, and often use it as an excuse for arbirent or emotional behaviour.
With men our hormones tend to be all related to sex and therefore agression too.
Delibretly provoking such a reaction randomly in men therefore carries an inherent risk you will provole a man whose 'animal insitincts' are far greater than their rational ones.
The end result is the same as what happens when a cat is on heat- the tom tries to have sex with it, violently if necessary.

Now none of this is nice, none of it is pleasant, and morality doesnt even come into it really- but its probably how things are.

still, one can work with peoples attitudes.

the thing is, if you follow the she wore a mini skirt therefore she was 'asking for trouble argument, it follows that women would be rather at risk in their own homes in front of their husbands. Women tend to wear night garments and underwear in front of their husbands, because they are at home in the bedroom and such. and in a hypothetical 'safe' environment.
Does that mean if she gets raped at home, she is 'asking for it?
women tend to wear skimpy clothes in a safe environment in my experience. They wear clothes like mini skirts in discos and pubs, where there are a lot of people about, and friends and boyfirends etc. They never wear skimpy clothes down a dark alley unless they are drunk or very drunk and very stupid. The problem is that most attacks are not by random pervs insensed by a short skirt, but husbands, boyfriends and trusted neighbours and work colleages. idem murders. So to say a womans dress is an issue is just a male whitewash to put the blame on women for being irresponsable and somehow to blame for all this violence. its a very old old chestnut.

I dont see it as blame Mrs Figgs, nothing as complicated as blame.
It seems more animal to me- and if a female is displaying in the animal kingdom she does so to signal to males a readiness to mate.
Now humans are a complicated animal and for us there is more going on than that, and we should be able to use reason and intelligence to overcome any instincitve reactions to a scantly clad women-and most men can- but not all it seems.

I agree most rapes, like most abuses are carried out by people known to the victim- but you do still get random crimes of rape regularly, women in parks or wherever simply being accosted.
I dont know enough about the psychology of such attackers to know how much the womens attire plays in their choice of victim, but I would suspect it plays some part. (perhaps Orwell can provide some info on that from his work experiences)
Not to menton the repressed sexual tension which might have been building for goodness knows how long fostered by media images of women as sexual objects combined with women dressing in, to men, provociative clothing.
None of which justifys anything of course, just tying to explain how it seems to be as far as I can see whether we like it or not.

for one man a provocative clothing might be a short skirt, another might find its an exposed neck or shoulder provocative. When society tells a woman to start wearing modest clothes to protect herself from the 'animal instincts' of men its a society thats no longer evolved or under any behavioural restraint.

its a society thats no longer evolved or under any behavioural restraint.- Mrs Figg

Problem is Im not convinced it all is evolved or under behavioural constraint- and thats the problem we have to somehow deal with..

I think I might need to make it clear what I meant earlier.

(1) Women have every right to dress as they please.

(2) Most men do notice scantilly clad women more readilly than those who cover up more. Some of these men see the mere scantiness as an invitation to touch. That's just the facts of life in regard to some men.

(3) There is no excuse to be sexually aggressive toward women, but having some wisdom about not putting yourself in a vulnerable situation is surely only.... well... wise... The world is not always fair and reasonable, nor are rights respected by all.

(4) I'm all for scantilly clad women.

(5) At the risk of harping on this: any woman (or girl) who is preyed on no matter what they're wearing is not to be treated as being anythng but a victim. All I'm saying is that the reality is scantilly clad women send a message to men, whether they mean to or not, so it's wise be aware of it and be cautious about when and where you are being scanty. In a safe environment, go for it. I'll not complain!

(6) Mrs Figg, boy you can be such a reactionary at times! But I really don't think a burkah would suit you!

me reactionary? is that scanty enuff?

I guess so...

Um.....

..was that an invitation or an admonishment?



{{{I guess I'll find out when I get home from work. }}}

I once was mugged while walking down a lonely street at night. Needed a trip to an emergency room.

Did I invite it? No.
Did I do something morally wrong? No.
Did I do something stupid given what I know about my society? Yes.
Should I object to society being this way? Yes.
Because I object to society being this way, and there is nothing morally wrong with me walking down a lonely street late at night, should I do it? NO!

As Orwell said so elegantly, I'm totally for women dressing as they please, especially if they decide to dress a bit less. In some cases though, it may attract unwanted attention. Rape may be in a whole different class and dress has nothing to do with it. But many men will whistle and shout at scantily clad women. They deserve a kick in the crotch, true (and I'd cheer the deed), but in some situations you may not want to dress the way you want, if you follow me.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
As to a woman groping a man- I couldnt count the amount of times at work I have had my arse slapped or pinched by female coworkers- and thats not some statement about my inherent sexual magnetism- they do it to everyone, particualr women of an older genration like to do it, they often cackle too.

Clearly I'm in the wrong line of work.

But getting back to Kafria's earlier point, clearly men and women live in different worlds. Men definitely don't have the same level of paranoia about being attacked, and for me it's a painful thing to try to wrap my head around. I wish I could turn it all off.

But I'm a bloke. Even after being mugged several times in as many cities, I'm still pretty happy-go-lucky wandering home at night. A bit more careful about my route and being watchful, but otherwise unaffected. I think men are conditioned by having had the s$*t kicked out of them in the gym class locker room on a regular basis.

This is one of the reasons several women I know carry guns when they go to the city.
(For myself, I find that if I'm asking myself whether I should carry a gun when I'm going someplace, I often find I can go someplace else instead....)

A scantilly clad woman with a gun... Gotta say... that is a turn on...


As to being pinched and patted on the botom, I remember (when I was about eighteen) a co-worker (also about eighteen) unexpectedly running her hand up my crevice in the files range (in the days before computers!) She had snuck up behind me, the little devil! I turned and saw her giggle as she fled. I gave her a heartfelt glare of offended outrage - darn tootin' - which quickly turned into one of bemused splendidness!


Aaaaaah! ....


Not saying what she done to me was right, mind!

I had a similar experience Orwell in my youth- at a staff meeting of all things- everyone round a very large and long table. Half way through the meeting I felt a hand on my thigh- and then, well elsewhere.
Complete and utter sexual harrassment in the workplace that if reversed would probably have seen me charged with sexual assualt

Best staff meeting I ever went to.

It's only a problem if it's unwanted sexual touching in my experience... (At least that's what I've heard!)

{{The trick is to not misjudge what her smile in the supermarket aisle is implying... After all, she might just be being polite towards a complete and utter stranger! }}}

It's only a problem if it's unwanted sexual touching in my experience...- Orwell

Theres the thing though- if a man did that its harrassment- when the same thing happens to a man we tend to just feel grateful and lucky.
Odd that.

Who's touching this man? A man or a woman...? It makes quite a difference as to what my response will be...