Re: Harry Potter

by halfwise Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:20 am

Petty's little brother didn't like it either, but perhaps it was the delivery. Wink

by Mrs Figg Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:30 am

he was drunk wasn't he? he probably hurled chunks on the kids head. scarred for life.

by Eldorion Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:43 am

I can understand why some people think the later HP books aren't good. For a while it felt like every HP fan I knew had a moment when they thought the series went off the rails, ranging from late in GOF to the epilogue of DH, and nearly everywhere in between. Generally speaking I still like the whole series and think it's more than the sum of its parts, but I think a case can be made that Rowling overreached towards the end. Even though her greater ambition also resulted in some of the series' most memorable and distinctive moments.

The first several books, however, were firing on all cylinders, and while the story is plenty generic, the execution is incredible and the setting and characters remain fresh and vivid to this day. Pointing to all the sources of inspiration that Rowling borrowed from (sometimes quite liberally) seems to me to be missing the point, because she combined things in an engaging way. I suppose that because the series was still defining its own identity it might seem generic, but I read a shit ton of children's fantasy growing up (both pre- and post-HP) and Rowlings' writing leaves most of the competition in the dust.

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:55 pm

It's interesting how people dislike and like different things. I've heard a lot of people call it dull, but the whole camping out to hide from the Death Eaters part in Deathly Hallows is probably one of my favourite parts of the series. It just captures that feeling of the complete futility of putting up a fight against a Voldemort in complete control of the wizarding world and the lenghts people had to go to to avoid capture. And it has tons of great character moments and atmosphere.

The later books did get a bit bloated., although I think that's part of their charm. The earlier books are more self contained. Oddly, I think I'd say the first book is the best standalone book in the series for that reason. It is the most self contained. just as I feel Game of Thrones is the best stand alone book in aSoIaF. While they're obviously not the internally best part of the series. I guess I would say.. Prisoner of Azkaband/Goblet of FIre/Order of the Pheonix and Storm of Swords. Probably.. Quality wise, at least. (Lately aDwDs and aFfCs combined have come to be my favourite part of aSoIaF, but I wouldn't claim it's the best.)

I guess what I'm trying to get at is there are lots of different perspectives to take. Razz

by Mrs Figg Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:46 pm

I like each book for different reasons. The first one is the most obvious kids book, and I like the way the books gradually get bigger and more in depth. Most of all its the atmosphere she creates that enchants me. it truly is a kind of magic and I had a mourning period the first time I finished the books. it was sad to leave that world.

I actually hate the movie epilogue in DH2, it sucks.
Yates F You

by malickfan Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:09 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:

I actually hate the movie epilogue in DH2, it sucks.
Yates

Other than the awful makeup it's more or less the same as the book epilogue Shrugging

I was never entirely sure whether I liked the epilogue in the first place, kinda wish Rowling had left it up to our imagination...

Yates will have ended up directing 5 of the 9 potterverse films, he's had a a greater impact on the franchise than anyone else alive. If he was so bad Rowling could easily have vetoed his appointment. Other than his tendency to light the films as if we are seeing things through sunglasses I really enjoy his four films , I'd be perfectly happy if he directed all of them (though I still wish Cuaron had decided to return for DH...)

Order Of The Phoneix remains (for some weird reason) the only film I have ever watched in the cinema that actually got applause from the audience at the end.

by malickfan Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:23 pm

Eldorion wrote:I can understand why some people think the later HP books aren't good. For a while it felt like every HP fan I knew had a moment when they thought the series went off the rails, ranging from late in GOF to the epilogue of DH, and nearly everywhere in between...

I wouldn't necessarily say the last three books go off the rails a bit, but at times it did feel like I was reading a different series. Although in some ways I enjoyed the bloat of the later books, Order and Hallows imo felt tonally a little removed from the first three books, and kinda generic, there was less magic, but more shouting and battling, voldy hiding his soul and Harry conquering death were very cliche, the epilogue was unnecessary and alot of the plot of Hallows seemed to come out of knowhere-its was really interesting to learn about Grindelvald and Dumbledore (still annoyed the cut this out of the films Evil or Very Mad

) but there wasn't really much build up...

Not saying it's a bad thing exactly, as Hallows would possibly rank second in my list (Azkaban will probably always be my favourite, but the list changes every time I do a re-read) but I do see where the complaints come from.

I think the pressure got to Rowling a bit...

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:51 pm

I thought the whole round up part of DH was a bit underwhelming, but then I felt the same about the end of the Wheel of Time series. So, maybe these final battles often are. The nervy first part I really loved though. (Harry being of a special bloodline was a bit convenient and fantasy trope-ee, weren't all the wizarding families meant to beintermingled anyway?, but the dive into the back story, the Hallows, was interesting.)

And I thought it suited the books to get tonally different as we got towards the more serious end. The books kind of grew up with the reader. I found that interesting. The bloat both positive and negative in the context of the narrative, but I for one really liked it.

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:52 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:Most of all its the atmosphere she creates that enchants me. it truly is a kind of magic and I had a mourning period the first time I finished the books. it was sad to leave that world.

I somehow managed to avoid reading the last book, and spoilers, for years after it came out, because it didn't feel like rushing to the end.

by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:12 am

Yates killed the magic

by Forest Shepherd Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:52 pm

Same Bluebottle!

I didn't read The Deathly Hallows until 2009 or so.

Hey what happened to that group-reading idea we had going?

I was all set to stop by my library and pick up a copy and then I got distracted and didn't.

by halfwise Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:26 am

Bluebottle wrote:The earlier books are more self contained. Oddly, I think I'd say the first book is the best standalone book in the series for that reason. It is the most self contained. just as I feel Game of Thrones is the best stand alone book in aSoIaF.

Well, that's the nature of the first book in a series that doesn't know yet it will be a series. Self contained by necessity.

For aSoIaF I think the other argument is that the first book has the enjoyable task of introducing a world and story. GRRM knew he was writing a series, so GoT wasn't self contained except for starting at the beginning on one end, while all other books are open on both ends.

I think Return of the King is the best of LotR, and I suspect the last book in aSoIaF has a good shot at being the best. Both a series mapped out from the get-go.

by Eldorion Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:20 am

Forest Shepherd wrote:Same Bluebottle!

I didn't read The Deathly Hallows until 2009 or so.

Hey what happened to that group-reading idea we had going?

I was all set to stop by my library and pick up a copy and then I got distracted and didn't.

I've been distracted by a number of things, especially work but also trying to catch up on anime in time for Otakon. I'll be camping next weekend though and I usually do a lot of reading on such trips so I expect I'll begin my HP re-read then.

by Bluebottle Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:31 pm

I did bring the first book with me this weekend, but didn't get around to reading much past the first page. I read a bit of A Storm of Swords and a book on the albigensian crusade I'm reading. So, hey. I might end up joining in after all. We'll see. Smile

by Bluebottle Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:33 pm

halfwise wrote:Well, that's the nature of the first book in a series that doesn't know yet it will be a series. Self contained by necessity.

For aSoIaF I think the other argument is that the first book has the enjoyable task of introducing a world and story. GRRM knew he was writing a series, so GoT wasn't self contained except for starting at the beginning on one end, while all other books are open on both ends.

Fair point, certainly. I do feel with Game of Thrones that with the ending with Ned you could kind of have ended thes eries there. As it held as much emmotional impact as anything in the series will. In many ways it's probably a good image of the series as a whole contained in one book.

The first Harry Potter book is kind of the same, although I think having Harry face up to Voldemort so soon kind of undercut the tension of the series. I would put some of that down to it being a childrens book though. So, it functions less well as a part of the whole. While perhaps being the quintessental childrens fantasy book on it's own.

halfwise wrote:I think Return of the King is the best of LotR, and I suspect the last book in aSoIaF has a good shot at being the best. Both a series mapped out from the get-go.

Containing the ending does of course give the final books in these series an uncommon emmotional impact. I tend to think the journey more interesting than the ending in most cases though, because how many writers are going to go.. "And then the Dark Lord triumphed." It's spectacular, but rather formulaic. But I guess that's the nature of myth.

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:35 pm

Ah, the agony of choice.

Harry Potter - Page 31 WP_20150616_001

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:49 pm

What's the mystery one on the right? Go for it! Nod

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:56 pm

It's A Most Holy War about the Albigensian Crusade. The thirteenth century crusade in south eastern France. Christians prosecuting other chrisians as heretics. (It was the first time a pope called a crusade against Western Christians by declaring them heretics.) It's a very interesting piece of history. Smile

by Eldorion Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:52 pm

I'm afraid I can't help you narrow that down any, Blue. Those are my three favorite epic fantasy book series right there. Nod

Are you already partway through re-reading LOTR and ASOIAF already, or were those just the most convenient books on hand for the photo op?

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:03 pm

Hehe, I'm actually a chapter or two into both A Storm of Swords and Two Towers. I read Fellowsip a while ago and thought I should get into reading the rest, and while I haven't read A Clash of Kings in a while the combined audiobook of aFfCs and aDwDs is the only thing but music I have on my phone so I've been listening to that for a while and I did read the first couple of chapters of A Storm of Swords over the weekend. So, I'm kind of currently into both those series. It's more about commiting to one really. As I think reading all three at the same time might be a bit much. Razz

by Eldorion Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:15 pm

Yeah, stories like these I find myself spending more time thinking about them than I do actually reading them, even when I'm reading quite a bit each day. I think it's the depth of the world more than anything else, though the characters being great helps too of course. So I have trouble switching back and forth between them too.

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:19 pm

The worst thing is I kind of want to reread the Wheel of Time again too. So that 's four massive series to wrestle with. Razz

by Eldorion Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:29 pm

I recently got a stripped copy of The Eye of the World for free from work (dunno if I mentioned this before) and I tried reading it, but it was just so similar to LOTR and I'd heard so many awful things about the middle volumes (and mediocre things about the lat three) that I didn't have it in me to keep going. I was kinda forcing myself to try it in the first place though since I knew it was well regarded by many.

by Bluebottle Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:43 pm

The first book is very Tolkien realted. He said he tried giving the first 100 or so pages of the booka LotRs type flavour to give the reader a familiar opening, which he then diverted from taking the reader somewhere new. A bit of a homage, really. It very much goes it's own way after that. Actually I wrote a post about just that that I didn't get around to posting..

Actually, I'm kind of rereading a book from my childhood as well. As I'm reading the first book of the Wheel of Time series, The Eye of the World, that I last read 13-14 years ago or something. I thought I'd give it another go had some fond memories of it in particular, and I'm quite enjoying it so far.

Interestingly there's a real Tolkienesque , and then diverted from it. There's certainly some moments that seem like strong... homages. This in particular:

The trotting column disappeared westward, thumping footfalls fading into the darkness, but Rand remained where he was, not moving a muscle except to breathe. Something told him to be certain, absolutely certain, they were gone before he moved. At long last he drew a deep breath and began to straighten. This time the horse made no sound at all. In eerie silence the dark rider returned, his shadowy mount stopping every few steps as it walked slowly back down the road The wind gusted higher,moaning through the trees; the horseman's cloak lay still as death. Whenever the horse halted, that hooded head swung from side to side as the rider peered into the forest, searching. Exactly opposite Rand the horse stopped again, the shadowed opening of the hood turning toward where he crouched above his father.

Rand's hand tightened convulsively on the sword hilt. He felt the gaze, just as he had that morning, and shivered again from the hatred even if he could not see it. That shrouded man hated everyone and everything, everything that lived. Despite the cold wind, sweat beaded on Rand's face.

Then the horse was moving on, a few soundless steps and stop, until all Rand could see was a barely distinguishable blur in the night far down the road. It could have been anything, but he had not taken his eyes off it for a second. If he lost it, he was afraid the next time he saw the black-cloaked rider might be when that silent horse was on top of him.

Abruptly the shadow was rushing back, passing him in a silent gallop. The rider looked only ahead of him as he sped westward into the night, toward the Mountains of Mist. Toward the
farm.

Later there's a race to a ferry, and something of a breaking of the fellowship moment, if I remember correctly. So I think one can summise a pretty heavy influence and a proper appreciation for Tolkien in Roberts work. And compared to GRRM, these books are most definitely written in the fantasy tradition of Tolkien. For good and bad, I guess one would say.

I also found this desciption really appealing.

THE EYE OF THE WORLD

A Black Rider (with one super-creepy new detail) and Gandalf arrive in a country village that is extremely and deliberately isolated from world events…except that the village is not populated by British-ish characters raised on an ideology of duty but with backwoods Americans inclined towards independence, stubbornness and mistrust of authority. And Gandalf is a woman. Go!

I do get it's kind of a big deal to take on 14 books, but if you ever decide to give it a proper go perhaps we could try to read it comparatively simultaniously. Smile

by Eldorion Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:13 pm

Thanks for sharing that post, Blue. I've been put off using Internet hype as a method for fantasy recommendations due to too many disappointments, but getting a rec from someone I actually know is much better. I might make an attempt at it again sometime, but I have so much other stuff I want to read and/or watch, that I have no idea when that will happen. But I will definitely let you know if and when I do. Smile