Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [2]

[David H]

Wait, I think I know that llama!!!

[Pettytyrant101]

Could be a whole new revenue stream for you-
'Daves farm for all your suspiscous vegetable needs- now with even friendlier llamas!'

[Eldorion]

What I want to know is why Germany repealed their bestiality laws in the past. I mean, how does a legislator propose such a bill? Did they start with, "first they came for the zoophiles..."?

[Mrs Figg]

think of the kids they would have? furry bad tempered children that can spit in your eye from 100ft away. oh wait, that sounds like Glaswegians.

[halfwise]

Gives whole new meaning to the term "petting zoo".

[halfwise]

Ah hell, I hate to interrupt such a great topic.

But with respect to israel this is crappy news.

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak on Monday abruptly announced he was quitting politics, injecting new turmoil into the Israeli political system weeks ahead of general elections.
Barak, Israel's most-decorated soldier and one-time prime minister, said he would stay on in his current post until a new government is formed following the Jan. 22 balloting.
His resignation could mean the departure of the most moderating influence on hawkish Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who holds a wide lead in polls and is expected to easily win re-election. Barak, who heads a small centrist faction in parliament, often served as Netanyahu's unofficial envoy to Washington to smooth over differences with the Obama White House.
His impending departure comes at a key time for Israel, as the nation struggles to find its way in a region where the old order of Arab autocrats has been swept aside by the Arab Spring and the rise of Islamist political parties. Israel also faces a looming decision on whether to attack Iran's nuclear program, which the Jewish state fears is designed to develop atomic weapons — a charge Tehran denies.
Less than a week ago, Barak led an eight-day military offensive against the Hamas militant group that rules the Gaza Strip. The fighting, aimed at ending rocket fire from the Palestinian territory. ended in a fragile truce.
"I didn't make this decision (to leave politics) without hesitating, but I made it wholeheartedly," he told a hastily arranged news conference, saying he had been wrestling with the decision for weeks.
He evaded repeated questions about whether he might agree to serve as a Cabinet minister in an upcoming government, leaving open the possibility that he might still retain an impact on Israeli politics. While most Cabinet ministers also hold parliamentary seats, they do not have to be elected lawmakers, and such appointments have been made in the past.
Barak, 70, made the surprise announcement even after polls showed his breakaway Independence Party gaining momentum after the Gaza campaign.
Despite the bump in the polls, Barak still could have found himself fighting for his political survival once election day rolls around. Surveys before the Gaza operation were unkind to his party, at times showing it polling too weakly to even send a single representative to parliament.
"I feel I have exhausted my political activity, which had never been an object of desire for me. There are many ways for me to serve the country, not just through politics," he said, adding that his decision was spurred in part by his desire to spend more time with his family.
Possible replacements include Vice Premier Moshe Yaalon, a former military chief, and Shaul Mofaz, a former military chief and defense minister, who now serves as chairman of the opposition Kadima Party.
Barak's political career was as turbulent as his 36-year military career was dazzling.
The former war hero and military chief of staff blazed into politics on the coattails of his mentor, Yitzhak Rabin, and had been viewed by many as his heir apparent. With a resume that includes commanding some of Israel's most daring hostage rescue operations and raids, Barak was elected prime minister from the centrist Labor Party in 1999 — just four years after retiring from the military. Many Israelis hoped he would parlay what was seen as his sharp strategic mind and unorthodox methods on the battlefield into long-elusive accords with the Palestinians and Syria.
But the consensus-building so important in the political arena did not mesh well with the go-it-alone style that served him in the military. Political allies and foes alike considered Barak aloof and imperious, and others questioned whether he possessed the interpersonal skills necessary to negotiate elusive accords with Israel's enemies.
Disappointed with his performance, Israeli voters booted Barak out of the premier's office in record time — less than two years — after his government unraveled with the outbreak of a Palestinian uprising and the collapse of U.S.-sponsored peace talks.
Hard-liner Ariel Sharon trounced him in a 2001 election. Barak left behind a legacy of failed peacemaking with the Palestinians and Syria, despite unprecedented offers of sweeping territorial concessions, and a contentious decision to end Israel's 18-year military occupation of south Lebanon overnight, which created a vacuum quickly filled by the anti-Israel Hezbollah guerrilla group.
For six years, the onetime Labor leader kept himself busy with lucrative speaking engagements and business consulting, reportedly amassing millions and cementing his image as a politician out of touch with his constituents.
But Barak returned to politics in 2007, handily recapturing the Labor leadership and replacing civilian Defense Minister Amir Peretz, who led a much-criticized war in Lebanon the previous summer.
But while Israelis liked Barak as defense minister, they didn't want him as their prime minister, and his party, which had led Israel to independence and governed the nation for its first three decades, lost its public appeal. In the 2009 election that brought Netanyahu to power, Labor won an all-time low of 13 of parliament's 120 seats.
Barak's dovish base turned on him after he led Labor into Netanyahu's conservative government, accusing Barak of betraying the party's ideals by joining forces with a man who at the time did not even recognize the principle of a Palestinian state.
In January 2011, he bolted Labor to form a new party, Independence, which has largely failed to resonate with the public.
Israeli hard-liners disliked him, too, accusing him of undermining the West Bank settlement movement by holding up building approvals, clearing squatters from West Bank homes and encouraging Netanyahu to support a temporary settlement construction slowdown.
But if Barak was unpopular with the public, he retained his clout with Netanyahu, whom he commanded in an elite special operations unit. As the prime minister's point man with the United States, Barak was welcomed in Washington as a moderating influence on Netanyahu's hard line policies toward the Arab world and Iran's nuclear program.
That alliance saw some rocky times recently with reports the prime minister objected to Barak's newly moderate tone that Israel should defer to the U.S. in deciding whether to attack Iranian nuclear facilities.
But the two seemed to have patched up things, appearing to work harmoniously on the recent Gaza campaign.
In a statement Monday, Netanyahu said he "respected" Barak's decision.

[Pettytyrant101]

That doesnt bode well.

[David H]

I'm afraid it seems that only a military leader has the cred to even attempt peace, and with Barak gone I don't know who's left....

Sharon gave it a good try for a while, but failed in the end.

I know Ben-Gurion wrestled with the issues too. I think he might just have pulled it off if his vision were a little clearer.

But with each year that passes the leaders get weaker and less charismatic, and the partisans get more entrenched.

[Pettytyrant101]

When military men turn their minds to peace they are often quite good at it, presumably because unlike politicians they know first hand the price of failure.

[Mrs Figg]

[Eldorion]

I didn't know she was out of the coma. Great news.

[Pettytyrant101]

An interesting debate in the UK parliament today. But not in the Commons where the foreign sec William Hague announced the UK would abstain on the UN vote on Palestinian statehood unless the Palestinians publicly conceded to two points- that they would negotiate with Israel without preconditions, and that if they get statehood they will not persue Israel through the ICC (international Criminal Court)- neither option the Palesinians are going to concede too- the former would mean giving up a precondition on the removal of settlements from Palestinian land, and the latter would mean no chance of bringing Israel to court for building illegal settlements.
A position the UK government were aware of naturally, the decision to abstain is typical cowardice on this governments behalf- an attempt to still look like we are in favour of the Palestines but not upsetting the Americans.

No the interesting debate was in the Lords where they were also discussing Palestine and this was said by Baroness Tonge; "the Palestinians have been totally betrayed by successive British governments.
By making our government's support for the UN bid conditional on Palestine not pursuing Israel through the ICC, is the government not admitting Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza and the West Bank and is seeking impunity for that country?"

A good question if you ask me.

Oh and a thumbs up to Norway who are apparently voting for.

[Pettytyrant101]

Sorry to return to it but I simply had to follow up on the German Bestiality story as it takes ever more weird teutonic turns.

"Michael Kiok, the chairman of the pressure group Zoophile Engagement for Tolerance and Information (Zeta), said he was going to take legal action to fight the proposed changes.
"It is unthinkable that any sexual act with an animal is punished without proof that the animal has come to any harm," he said, adding that animals are capable of showing what they do, or do not, want to do.
We see animals as partners and not as a means of gratification. We don't force them to do anything. Animals are much easier to understand than women," Mr Kiok claimed." BBC

Now as if reading that wasnt bad enough that paragraph is followed with this-

'Bestiality is banned in many European countries"

Many? MANY? Not all then?
So where can you go to legally bugger a goat if the fancy takes you?

"The act however, is permissible in Belgium, Denmark and Sweden"

No wonder you Fjordians are so worried by the Swedes, they're after your reindeeer, and when they say they want it for dinner they mean at the table sitting beside them on the way to a romantic evenings entertainment!

[Eldorion]

From what I read it sounds like a lot of European countries are stepping up to the plate on the Palestinian statehood question. I hope the UK comes around. It would be nice if the US did too but I know that won't happen.

[Eldorion]

We see animals as partners and not as a means of gratification. We don't force them to do anything. Animals are much easier to understand than women," Mr Kiok claimed." BBC

That just says everything that needs to be said about these people.

By the way, if you feel like learning more and/or throwing up, Vice put together a documentary about bestiality a while back.

http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-sex/asses-of-the-caribbean

[Pettytyrant101]

I think I will pass on that one Eldo- I doubt very much there is anything these people could say to convince me its ok to start having sex with my pets. I'd rather be shot. In the balls.

On the Palestinian issue I dont think the UK government will come round. The UK Foreign Office, once a friend of Palestine, is now basically an extension of the US Foreign Office (or whatever its equivelent is).
Which is odd as last time we had a Conservative leadership was Thatcher- and although people tend to remember her militarily for the Falklands war and standing shoulder to shoulder with Reagan over the USSR- they tend to forget there were occasions she told America to go stuff it- in fact when America invaded Greneda she not only opposed Reagan she threatened him if he crossed British airspace or tried to use any British owned or runned airports or refueling depots.
And she told the Irish premiere "The Americans are worse than the Soviets… persuading the governor [of Grenada] to issue a retrospective invitation to invade after they had taken him aboard an American warship"

That willingness to disagree, and strongly with America seems to have been lost somewhere down the line- I suspect with Blair.

[Mrs Figg]

love her or hate her, she had balls of steel.

[CC12 35]

If I was a master thief
Perhaps I’d rob them

[Pettytyrant101]

You mean you are not a master thief Carly? My disappointment is boundless.

[Pettytyrant101]

The UN has voted.

The UN General Assembly has voted to grant the Palestinians non-member observer state status - a move opposed by Israel and the US.
The assembly voted 138-9 in favour, with 41 nations abstaining.
Israel's ambassador to the UN, Ron Prosor, said the bid "doesn't advance peace - it pushes it backwards".
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called the vote "unfortunate and counter-productive", saying it put more obstacles on the path to peace. "


Obsacles? Like what? That they might now get Israel to the ICC to stand trial for their crimes and illegal settlements?
What a tragedy that would be....

[Eldorion]

Glad to hear about this. Hopefully being recognized as a state will help the Palestinian people achieve justice and security.

Saw this pic on Twitter: Abbas' speech projected in Bethlehem using the Israeli partition wall as a screen.

[David H]

I've long thought that if there is to be a path to peace it would be bureaucratic rather than military, and this seems like a good first step.

Now imagine step 2. What would happen if rather than trying to dismantle settlements, Israel were to assess property taxes on them, the total of which were turned over to the Palestinian government? More settlers and more development would then mean a wealthier, stronger Palestine.

Other regulation to follow.

This would allow any of the moderate occupants of the settlements who were interested to gradually integrate into an independent Palestine, while the more extreme Zionists would have plenty of time to decide if they wanted to relocate and sell their assets in an orderly manner.

I personally hate bureaucracy, but in this case I think it could be the right tool....

[Pettytyrant101]

projected in Bethlehem using the Israeli partition wall as a screen- Eldo

Thats genius.

David I think you could be onto something there- these things can be solved and its best without the bullets and bombs if you want it to last.
Northern Ireland was transformed by both sides putting down the guns and taking up words.
They still dont agree, still dont particualry like each other- but they solve their difference through the ballot box, debate, votes and legislation.
It can happen.

[Mrs Figg]

the ordinary people from both sides just got sick to the stomach with blood on the streets, thats what stopped it. When the desire for peace outweighs the desire for revenge and violence.

[Pettytyrant101]

Yes I think you are right about that- these sort of long term conflicts are usually the acts of a dedicated minority and everyone else just has t put up with it- when they get a voice over the extremists peace has a chance.

I found this telling, from the BBC-

"There had been lobbying by Israel and the US to try to delay the vote or change the text to obtain guarantees that no international legal action would be taken against Israel."

I wonder why? Could it be becuase they know they are in violation of international law and dont stand a snowballs chance in hell if brought to a legal court to answer for their crimes?