Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Pettytyrant101]

"in an internet age where the vast majority of teenage boys openly admit to having watched graphic porn, their perception of the message that clothing is giving does not relate to the reality."- Kafria

Does explain why so many of them seem to want to become plumbers though!

"giggled out loud when I read this, as much through recognising the truth of it for some women as at the disclaimer that followed."- Kafria

Well in defence of my disclaimer if I had said the same thing to a Scottish woman it would have ended in screams- and not hers! Can never be too careful.

Interesting what you say about women dressing for their peers- is that for approval or in competition?

"I'm a bit of a prude when it comes to clothes, don't own a skirt that falls above the knee or a pair of shorts, cropped trousers are good enough! For school I will not wear scoop neck tops as I tend to lean over desk when talking to kids"- Kafria

You dress exactly the opposite of how I wished as a teenager my female teachers would dress (well some of them)! That's probably a good thing.

[Kafria]

Interesting what you say about women dressing for their peers- is that for approval or in competition?

Can only speak for myself here, but it's approval based, I don't want to out do others, I just don't want to be looked down on (As scruffy or dowdy or having poor taste) In truth it's probably a mind game with myself as I am the most crtical of myself infront of the mirror. Mind Thats as far as it goes, not too worried when I'm out and busy, after all I can't actually see how I look most of the time!

[Pettytyrant101]

To sort of drag this back to the core of the thing- Ken Clarkes statement- I see Milliband called for his head and made quite a bit of sport with it at PMQ's. I found the whole using it for political point scoring pretty distasteful.

[Kafria]

Particulalry when even .on the program he was talking about 'against her will' which is the crux of what rape is

[odo banks]

As usual when you guys start have long in depth conversations which I barely understand I fall back to old fashioned views. My one on this discussion is: "Judge every case on it's merits." I would add one more thought though: "Is linear age the right way to measure and treat sexual matters? Shouldn't 'physical' maturity be the starting point of discussion?" (And I'm not ignoring 'psycholgical' maturity here - one can't ignor 'psycholgical' matters in a society that is still largely Christian influenced, and therefore sexually repressed and often foolish).

[Pettytyrant101]

Indeed. The reporting of it on some sources is very selective to say the least.
I do find it odd though that the term rape is applied to cases where one partner is under 16, but in every way except legal definition consenting. I'm not arguing about whether it should be a crime or not, just the label, perhaps some other word would be more appropriate. Speaking as a man rape is the worst crime I could be accused of, I'd rather be accused of murder. Seems a harsh tag to put on someone for consenting but technically illegal sex.
And whilst iI am on anomalies I still find the nameing the accused before they have been tried to be deeply unfair. Mud often sticks and many people have been destroyed just by allegations. I've never understood the purpose of it. Surely anonimity until conviction is fairer?

You are such a tease Odo (a daring jibe in this conversation I know!) feigning to partake in a 'deep' conversation then casually tossing in a comment that makes it deeper than the ocean!
I think you do have a point. Everyone matures at a different age- in a time before civilisation and laws I presume nature took care of this, when the signals were being given out then it was time as simple as that. Thats the problem with humans, all this reason and thought but its floating on top of all this older stuff from our long past.

[Gandalf's Beard]

Alrighty Then:

Here in the US, an adult having consensual sex with a teenager is called Statutory Rape. Personally I think that charge is ridiculous when applied to "adults" in their late teens or or early 20's having sex with a teenager in their mid-teens.

In these sorts of situations, charges should only be brought if the situation warrants it: Such as a 20 year old NOT of long standing acquaintance with said teenager plies the teenager with drugs or alcohol to lower said teenagers inhibitions (such as at a party). In those cases it can reasonably be argued that the teenager was denied the mental capacity to consent or deny sexual advances. In these circumstances, charges of statutory rape should be taken on a case by case basis, depending on whether the teenager in question expresses regrets or satisfaction.

I think Statutory Rape charges should ALWAYS be brought if the minor in question is pre-pubescent. Then Paedophilia charges should also be added to the Statutory Rape charges.

If the teenager in question has had a longstanding consensual sexual relationship with another teenager who comes of age before the other, no charges at all should be brought to bear. And if two teenage minors have a consensual sexual relationship, charges of Statutory Rape are Prima Facie without merit or warrant, in other words, complete Bulls***.

The question of Statutory Rape becomes a bit stickier if the adult in a consensual relationship with a teenage minor is over 29 years of age. I think these cases should be taken on a case by case basis to determine whether or not the teenager exhibits the mental capacity to affirm or deny sexual relationships.

The above is the Legal Opinion of a Non-Lawyer.
(though I have had a couple of classes )

I should like to add that the definition of a "minor" in the modern era is completely at odds with the Historical Record and Biology, in which a "minor" generally comes of age after reaching puberty. Historically speaking, the modern coming of age (generally between 16 and 18) has only been in effect for roughly a century, which I think may be due to the advent of Anti-Child Labour Laws.

Workers and their Unions had economic as well as moral reasons for demanding these laws. Child Labour is a downward force on Wages, as children have no rights or the capacity to organize for collective bargaining rights to demand higher wages. Thus, it is a testament to these times, that the Conservative drive to smash Public Workers Unions in the US is coinciding with calls from some Conservatives to end the laws against Child Labour.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/republican-child-labor

http://www.mountainofevidence.com/2011/02/missouri-to-repeal-its-child-labor-laws.html

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/15/missouri-child-labo/

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/17/gop-senator-calls-federal-laws-child-labor-unconstitutional/

[url]http://jerry611.newsvine.com/_news/2011/02/16/6063969-missouri-gop-wants-to-repeal-child-labor-laws[/ur]

So in the end, even the issue of Statutory Rape is entwined with Political Economic issues. Should Fiscal Conservatives manage to repeal Child Labour laws, it is only a short step to repeal the laws regarding the Age of Consent; which would likely lead to a split between the Fiscal and Social Conservative alliance that propelled Reagan to the Presidency.

And if you think this scenario utterly implausible, consider that many anti-regulation conservatives who regard Profits and the Bottom Line as the Primary Objective would gleefully jump on the bandwagon to legalize what is currently a Highly Profitable Underground Market, especially in the US and the UK which I will explore momentarily.

Anecdotally, when I returned to the UK to settle my Grandmother's estate in 1999, I would often peruse The Sun's Page 3 (which is the only thing in The Sun worth perusing ). I was very surprised to find that girls as young as 16 were doffing their clothing for the dubious honour of being a Page 3 Girl. That would be a Felony Charge of Child Pornography in the US.

Admittedly, though I was surprised, I didn't think it entirely shocking as the girls were clearly consenting to take part in their own exploitation (and because I'm a Guy ). But I also felt ambivalent, as I'm not certain that some (but not all) teenage girls understand the ramifications of allowing themselves to be exploited.

In this regard, the US's schizoid hypocrisy regarding the sexual exploitation of minors generates an extreme sense of cognitive dissonance. Beauty pageants with young prepubescent girls are practically de rigueur, with mothers living vicariously through, and gleefully dolling up, their own daughters in what I consider to be a particularly Gruesome (and Icky ) display of Callousness.

And in the US, girls in their teens are highly sexualized in all manner of commercial media, but because they (mostly) have their clothes on, it's not considered Child Pornography. Which is bizarre, as the images clearly display these teens in provocative (and often minimal) clothing and sexually provocative positions and dance routines. Again, I'm not particularly bothered (as a guy) of teenage girls engaging in "self" exploitation. But, as stated above, I'm not certain that many (but not all) teenage girls are actually capable of really understanding that largely, there is nothing at all "self" about their exploitation.

Our societies are clearly still Male Dominated. Given this fact, teenage girls are just behaving in a manner that they are taught to behave; which is to place the needs and desires of Males before their own. And most of them really don't have a clue that they are not really in charge of their ability to make appropriate decisions.

GB

[odo banks]

Mr Tyrant, Christian Reason is half the problem. Belief in a non-existent God who hands down "Reason" is no basis for a form of (sexual) government! We make too much of sex, but I agree with those animals who take one mate and stay with them (all things willing). Also, children in the transition period of their lives should be protected by wiser heads (i.e. "adults" hopefully). But obeying strict laws, and not subscribing to common sense, is a foolish way to go. Every case of it's merits. And enough with this Christian loathing of God-given sexuality! The more we suppress what is natural the more we have people bottling up their natural feelings and hiding behind bushes, both figuratively and actually.

And GB, you posted when I posted! How coincedental!

[Gandalf's Beard]

Mr Tyrant, Christian Reason is half the problem. Belief in a non-existent God who hands down "Reason" is no basis for a form of (sexual) government! We make too much of sex, but I agree with those animals who take one mate and stay with them (all things willing). Also, children in the transition period of their lives should be protected by wiser heads (i.e. "adults" hopefully). But obeying strict laws, and not subscribing to common sense, is a foolish way to go. Every case of it's merits. And enough with this Christian loathing of God-given sexuality! The more we suppress what is natural the more we have people bottling up their natural feelings and hiding behind bushes, both figuratively and actually.

And GB, you posted when I posted! How coincedental!

I quite agree with you Odo, and i expect that you may be shocked to discover that most Left-leaning Sex-Positive Feminists agree with you too.

GB

[odo banks]

Not at all, not at all. According to my life philosophy, even the silliest people can believe in sensible things. Silliness is a relative term in my opinion. I refuse to put people in a box, I put them on a graph. Any other approach would be unrespectable. Here to help!

[Pettytyrant101]

"Anecdotally, when I returned to the UK to settle my Grandmother's estate in 1999, I would often peruse The Sun's Page 3 (which is the only thing in The Sun worth perusing Wink ). I was very surprised to find that girls as young as 16 were doffing their clothing for the dubious honour of being a Page 3 Girl. That would be a Felony Charge of Child Pornography in the US.
Admittedly, though I was surprised, I didn't think it entirely shocking as the girls were clearly consenting to take part in their own exploitation"- GB

A few years back a leading female politician (for some reason I can't recall which one) made an attempt to ban page 3. It failed miserably when the page 3 girls (organised by the Sun of course) marched on Parliament (that sort of thing never happens on any protest marches I've been on sadly). Claiming it was their right, they knew what they were doing, it was a valid carrer choice and they were well paid for it and that if anyone was being exploited it was men (and presumably although they didn't say so lesbians).
When I was about 9-11 my friends and I had a gang hut in the hills, the walls were covered with p3. So even at that age we did view them as sexual. Sadly I know now I'm getting old because I skim right by it with barely a glance these days and the only thought that tends to drift through my head is, 'they could have had some intresting news on that page!'

I agree with everything else in your GB and with you Odo. What we think a human should be and what we actually are seem to be becoming increasingly seperate.

[odo banks]

As I make this post, I sit watching my littlies Shady and Sunny playing on the bank of The Water. (((Oh "bank" how droll! "Bank". Do you get it?))) It minds me of the reason animals have sexual intercourse in the irst place. And it's our good fortune as hobbits that there can be "intimacy" in the procreative act (with any luck), and trust, and love, and care with responsibility --- Dreamy old Odo, old fashioned me, sitting on the bank watching my offspring while Bella clinks the dishes washing up... and is that the energetic stroke of Primmy's broom in the kitchen coming out through the open door of our cosy hole...? ahhh Springtime in Forumshire...

[Gandalf's Beard]

When I was about 9-11 my friends and I had a gang hut in the hills, the walls were covered with p3. So even at that age we did view them as sexual. Sadly I know now I'm getting old because I skim right by it with barely a glance these days and the only thought that tends to drift through my head is, 'they could have had some intresting news on that page!'

I guess i'm still a teenager at heart then. Though I no longer plaster my walls with such images; I keep scrapbooks instead.

The Sun never had any "interesting news" to begin with. So no loss there.

GB

[Pettytyrant101]

I said I skimmed by page 3- never said a word about the contents of my harddrive though!

[Gandalf's Beard]

Another real world empirical example in the UK that proves what no US Conservative will EVER admit: That Privatization INCREASES costs. Quite the opposite of the claims of Corporate Anti-Government "Free Marketeers."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13446824

GB

[odo banks]

I looked up "porn" on the internet thingee and you'd be amazed what I found... not one ring, or bracelet, trombone, television or trinket! Things were far more respectable, however, after Wisey told me to spell it "p.a.w.n." I bought a nice violin for Sunny and a bassoon for Shady! They're delighted! Sadly, I'm still traumatised...

[Pettytyrant101]

Strangely enough Odo I tried the same thing but I did find something with a trombone in it- and now I'm traumatised. I used to play one of them in the school band- and that's NOT what the sliding bit is for!!!!

[Ringdrotten]

[Kafria]

To back track a little to yesterdays rape debate saw this on the beeb analysis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13440222

Two things struck me

One - There is a mitigation for those, where consensual activity has been occuring

Two - If we're honest, I think we might all admit to being guilty of judging those who don't visibly appear injured. We don'tlike to think people we know might behave like this so we end up questioning the experience of the victim.

Not going to say more, we covered a lot of ground last night!

[Eldorion]

Reading that article, I have to agree with the critics of the justice secretary. I fail to see how date rape does not involve "violence and an unwilling woman", unless Mr. Clarke believe that agreeing to go on a date is tantamount to consenting to have sex.

I have mixed up feelings regarding statutory rape when the individuals in question are in a relationship and the difference in ages is relatively small, though. It becomes more difficult when you consider that age does not correlate with maturity at a fixed rate. That said, there are many cases of statutory rape that I think are clearly wrong.

[Gandalf's Beard]

I don't think people are taking things SERIOUSLY enough on this thread.

Come on people! Wake up! The Biggest, Baddest, and Seriousest Story of the Century is here. Get ready! Stockpile weapons and Ammo (Bazookas, Tanks, and Missile launchers should be top of your list) . Stockpile food and water. Armour Plate your homes. Full body armour might be a good idea too. And remember, aim for the heads. They can't bite you if you take off their heads.

Don't say you weren't warned. You have little time to prepare. The Zombie Apocalypse is close at hand.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/05/19/zombie.warning/index.html?iref=NS1



GB

[Gandalf's Beard]

Leading Scientists are now contemplating how best to stem the coming ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE, though they admit THAT THE ODDS OF SURVIVING A ZOMBIE ATTACK ARE SLIM TO NONE. But the following report might make all the difference between having your brains eaten or surviving.

INSIDE ZOMBIE BRAINS
By Elizabeth Landau, CNN



CNN) -- An airborne virus is rapidly turning people into zombies. Two-thirds of humanity has been wiped out. Scientists desperately look for a cure, even as their own brains deteriorate and the disease robs them of what we consider life.

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
*The zombie virus basically eats the brain down to the amygdala
*When it's humans vs. zombies, the best solution is a strategic attack, mathematician says
*Zombie virus may actually be airborne, and not spread by bites as previously assumed. It is now recommended that Armour Plated HazMat suits be worn at all times.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/04/25/zombie.virus.zombies.book/index.html

GB

[Gandalf's Beard]

I haven't seen any reports from the Archet Bugle about impending Zombie Attacks on the Shire.

Smells like a cover-up to me. This could be the biggest conspiracy in Middle Earth since Bilbo married an Elf, and passed off his half-breed son as a nephew.

GB

[Ringdrotten]

This could be the biggest conspiracy in Middle Earth since Bilbo married an Elf, and passed off his half-breed son as a nephew.

[Eldorion]

No, no! The problem isn't zombies! The problem is that the Rapture is going to happen tomorrow! You only have 24 more hours to repent and be saved!

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/18/tick-tock-goes-the-doomsday-clock/