Religous debates and questions

Bingo on both the recent Chris posts, but perversely those who most need to start thinking logically will most likely respond to the emotional push of #2 rather than the logic of #1.

Being watching all the news coverage of the new pope- odd that so much repectable and awed reporting should be put aside for the election by an international pedophile ring of their new leader- strange world.

The other thing that struck me was the amazing doublethink going on in the election of a Pope, supposedly head of a church teaching the words of a man who said the meek would inherit the earth, surrounded by priceless artwork, gold, more gold, expensive robes and ridiculous levels of self importance and self righteousness and some more gold.
If this new Pope is anyhitng like a real deal he should sell off the lot and use the money to eradicate world poverty.

Well supposedly the new Pope has been an advocate for the poor and chose to live in an ordinary apartment and take public transportation when he was the Archbishop of Buenos Aires. So I hope that he will do some good for the impoverished people of the world.

I think thats why they have elected this Pope, they were worried. They needed a strong message of change otherwise he wouldnt have had a chance of the top job. he is known for being humble not liking rich surroundings and travelled on the bus when he was in Argentina, he seems like a nice man. he has chosen Francesco as a name, which is very symbolic, as francesco gave up all his wealth for poverty. I think this Pope may just do some good for a change. he is certainly the charasmatic leader they need, as the church was in serious shit. I agree about selling off the gold and the velvets and paintings. I am not sure if he could legally do so, as I am sure it belongs to the State, but its a fresh start.

I am more cynical - words mean nothing- his track record is of supproting the churches stance on contraception, abortion and homosexuality. I dont forsee much change there- so bogted homophobes they will remain, thousands of their followers will continue to die from sexually transmitted disease, and women who find that abortion is the best choice in their circumstances will be made to feel guilty and terrible about what is already a difficult enough decision.

As to whether or not he will expose the depth of the sexual abuse of children the catholic church has been indulging in for centuries- well given he was votedin by Cardinals- many of whom probably have either personal sins in their cupboard or are guilty of covering up and allowing the sins of other to flourish- I have little hope they have voted in someone who will go on to expose them and their church to scrutiny. Turkeys dont vote for xmas.

To me,this is a tough world,run by tough people who are lucky or aggressive enough to procure for themselves a high level of importance. Once youve joined "the merry boys brigade" & engratiated yourself in, theres no end of covering up of corruption that will go on. Each "evil do'er" will benefit in one way or another, & bribes,blackmail & influence are rife ! But, being as its such a high power, catholicism, the nearest thing to God in many peoples eyes, how much influence can we, the ordinary person, inflict ? what changes can we put upon such a "pure" order ? what can be done to not only change their ways but to change their minds,AND to act on that change, permanantly, as WE, decent people with moral values, want them to ? To us its blatantly obvious to sell off wealth etc to help others, maybe you could say the same of the Monarchy. But these kind of people seem loathed to do that for all their preaching.

Most of the 'old' money in UK society is based on whose ancestor was the biggest bastard- so I completely agree Azriel.
And any system which involves humans is almost instantly corrupted- if the system happens to be one which claims everything it does or says is Divine Truth from God and unquestionable then the possibilities for corruption become astronomical.
Add to that the Catholic church- unlike most political systems- does not seem to have the checks and balances usually incorporated to try to stop corruption, or at least detect and deal with it and you have the current obscene situation.

There never WILL be checks because the church & all its members ARE divine. They are "married" to God & their word is the word of God & therefore NOT to be doubted or questioned EVER!. The catholics hide under the cloak of "God", they move freely amonst us, with a free hand, because people pin their hopes,faith & trust in them.thus allowing & giving permission to do whatever & not be judged. There IS no other judge that can condem them or hold them accountable,only God can do that. How bloody convenient ! Blackmailing people mentally, in the pretence their God, wants them to behave a certain way or Hell is awaiting ! I dont trust so called "religious" orders, priests,Fathers,Vicars, monks,you name it. & I dont trust in something so elusive,that cant be seen,heard,or touched,just cos someone says I should have "faith". Im not knocking everyday people who want to believe in a God of their choosing ! just the pedlars who in their own seductive way,are practically brain washing some of society. & that IS obscene! Legalised debauchery in a vestment.

Thing is there seems to be a genuine desire among the grass roots catholic community for a new Pope to put the house in order- but I fear that what we will get are token gestures and more will be swept under the carpet than will ever come to light.

Well said Petty, i'v missed you

Thanks Chris- its good to be back in my familar barrel again- although it does whiff a bit, seemed my cleaner hadnt been round in my time away, and then I found that the cleaner had in fact been round but had discovered my buckie supply and thinking I wasnt coming back drank it.
Took me over an hour to bury the body. And now I need a new cleaner.


On the matter of the new Pope I see he is getting some stick over goings on when Argentina had a nutty dictatorship ruling it.
History speaks for itself here- doesnt matter if you go back to the political games of Constantine, the bending of rules for Henry 8th or collusion with Hitler- the Catholic Church always has only one main aim- sod the people we want to survive. They keep their mouths shut, turn blind eyes to atrocites, and in worse cases actively collude- just so long as they get to keep their land, churchs and gold.

actually being here in the thick of it so to speak I can read everything the italian press and tv are saying, I genuinely think this Pope is going to be a broom that sweeps out all or most of the corruption. for a start they have got rid or are in the process of reforming the curia and ousting Bertone, who is a major part of the problems. Francesco has a will of iron and is already stiring them up by refusing all the trappings such as armed guards Popemobile gold crosses and such like, he is determined to change things, he is the right man for the job, whether you believe or not the Church is here to stay, but many positive things can be done to help the poor. Francesco has had a difficult life and is from humble beginnings and has seen at first hand desperate poverty, he will make a stand on this over other issues as he is no reformist he is conservative, but he has a certain charisma, a certain purity that the others lack. they needed some serious positive spin and with Francesco I think they will get far more than they bargained for.

As I said before I dont paymuch heed to words- only actions count- and when it came to publicly speaking out against crimes committed by the Argentinian Junta on its people he was suspciously absent.

I'm back to internet! (It's a double-edged sword really.)

Mrs Figg wrote:..... and with Francesco I think they will get far more than they bargained for.

I'd just like to point out that previous Popes who gave more than was bargained for have had a suspicious habit of dieing unexpectedly.

He's already pretty old, not sure he needs help to die unexpectedly.

As far as judging people by their actions, it's situation dependent. A priest who may not have spoken out during a dictatorship for fear of his life or reprisals against his church is in a far different position than a pope in an established church.

He's different from what came before, may well do some house cleaning. I wouldn't judge a pope on whether he goes against prior catholic doctrine either: his job is all about upholding catholic doctrine. No, the way to judge a pope is by how he runs the church. If he makes the church more responsive to the needs of its followers, then he's doing a good job whether or not he reverses a thousand years of doctrine just because people have decided in the last few decades that maybe gays aren't all that bad, or that women can vote, etc.

If he changes church doctrine, then he's an earth shaker. But he doesn't have to be an earth shaker to be a good pope, and it's unfair to expect such things of him.

But pedophilia and the ilk ain't church doctrine; that he should be expected to address.

But pedophilia and the ilk ain't church doctrine- Halfwise

But it has been ongoing since at least Roman times- that has to be a concern.
If it were anything other than a religion- a government, a company, in which such acts had held to be instituinalised and consistent across hundreds of years, would they be left to investigate themselves and to deal out punishments as they saw fit?
I doubt it- yet the catholic church, using this protective umbrella of God is allowed to.

The Vatican and the Chuch should have all its documents and records seized and be investigated by an independent body. Its crimes should be laid bare and those responsible should find themselves in a court of law to answer to the charges.

And on the point of speaking out- surely if your faith in God and in his word is absolute its better to go to the firing squad proclaiming it than to keep quiet.
Surely thats the whole strength of it?

"And on the point of speaking out- surely if your faith in God and in his word is absolute its better to go to the firing squad proclaiming it than to keep quiet.
Surely thats the whole strength of it?"

So you expect more of a religious leader than anyone else?

Perhaps you could say extraordinary beliefs should be backed by extraordinary actions. In fact this has been the case far more often with religious leaders than the rest of humanity, and therein lies the strength of religion. But such people are rare, and unfortunately I doubt the Pope has ever been such a person, with the possible exception of the first proto-popes who operated in hiding.

this Pope is open to all sorts of accusations, but involvement in politics is not their job, as to speaking out against the military, well its counter productive, he would have just 'disappeared' like millions of others. He did his job, which was to care for the poor in his care. He reminds me of Pope Luciani who was the one before John Paul 11 who only lasted a few weeks. Francesco is conservative and wont revolutionize the doctrine, but he will do a good job with the corruption and the fight against pedophiles, he might do too good a job, but he will probably surround himself with allies, thats why Ratzinger left, he was surrounded by enemies and spies, and in a final way of getting rid of them all he abdicated, it was his way of rebellion as he probably knew he was too old and didnt have the energy or the right personality to challenge them head on.

Its a question of living up to what you proclaim Halfwise.
If you believe as a devout catholic that if you die for proclaiming the word of God then you are martyred, and not only go to heaven but get a sepcial seat beside God with the Elect.
If you truelly believe that getting shot is not an ending but the start of a wonderful new begining then you wouldnt heisitate- you'd only hesitate if you didnt really believe it.

And if your job is persuading others that they should follow your religion, and therefore do what you say your God wants them to, as interpreted by Gods church, then yes you do have to live up to that.
Because if such a person is not willing to die knowing what awaits them in Heaven why should anyone else listen to them or do what they say?

Because if you go to Heaven too soon nobody will have time to hear your message. Or you may not be able to save anyone. Surely even the religious believe there are benefits to hanging around on earth before making the final trip: after all, there's nothing to accomplish in Heaven.

True- but at which point as the bodies mount up, and the torture and the abuses go on do you have to say you cannot be a party to it any longer in any fashion and have to speak out?
If you are joe bloggs that might be quite far down the line, if at all- but if you profess to preach this, if you revere and hold up as models of perfect being previous martyrs- then yes you should be willing to give your life rather than compromise the word of God.
Otherwise your words are just empty ones.

The Catholic Archbishop of Durban, Wilfrid Fox Napier, has described paedophilia as a psychological "illness, not a criminal condition".
He said he knew at least two priests, who became paedophiles after themselves being abused as children.
"What do you do with disorders? You've got to try and put them right.
If I - as a normal being - choose to break the law, knowing that I'm breaking the law, then I think I need to be punished.
Now don't tell me that those people are criminally responsible like somebody who chooses to do something like that. I don't think you can really take the position and say that person deserves to be punished. He was himself damaged."
- BBC news