Re: We're all doomed! Doomed I say- the Corona virus thread for panicking in!

[Lancebloke]

Cool... now what happened to that stable world plan...




We really need that Mars colony up and running.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Not sure how much you can rely on testing and tracing to help in the US, seems your President just thinks testing people makes him look bad!

"You know testing is a double-edged sword. Here's the bad part ... when you do testing to that extent, you're going to find more people; you're going to find more cases. So I said to my people, slow the testing down please."

So just to be clear, so far the President of the United States has been taking an inappropriate drug that was discovered to kill more covid sufferers than it helped, advocated bleach as a potential cure, effectively dismantled the scientific team that were daily briefing the people on the disease, refused to wear a face mask and declared those who do only do so as a slight against him, thinks Lockdowns are a left-wing conspiracy to destroy his good economy, and that testing only uncovers more cases, which makes him look bad so he wants to slow down the testing.
Meanwhile more Americans are dead from covid than anywhere else in the world.

If anyone is left wondering why the rest of the world doesnt take the US seriously any more, just read that again. }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Meanwhile in reality- }}

'Four states are reporting record highs of confirmed coronavirus cases, raising new concerns that the virus is far from conquered in the United States.
Arizona, Florida, California and Nevada have all reported spikes in infections in the past week, with the news seemingly getting worse by the day.
Nevada had 379 new cases on Monday, the most in a single day to date, but then eclipsed that mark on Friday with 410 cases.
The other states are recording thousands of new cases, with Florida reporting 3,822 on Friday and adding 4,049 new cases on Saturday. Arizona has increasingly become the new epicenter of the pandemic in the U.S., with 3,246 cases on Friday and a record number of ICU patients Thursday, accounting for 84 percent of the state’s capacity.
California reported more than 4,300 new cases Friday.
Other states, including Texas, South Carolina and Oklahoma, have also seen spikes in new cases, but few governors have taken action to pause or roll back reopening plans.
“We’re not rolling back,” Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said Tuesday.
"The world is in a new and dangerous phase," WHO Director-General Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said. "Many people are understandably fed up with being at home. Countries are understandably eager to open up their societies and economies, but the virus is still spreading fast. It is still deadly, and most people are still susceptible."

[halfwise]

Florida and Arizona are the two biggest retirement states, which not only gives them top-heavy demographics with increased susceptibility to this virus, but also makes them more conservative with a tendency to favor an open economy over government control. It's tempting to say "long was this doom foretold" but I don't recall anyone clearly drawing the threads together. Perhaps saying this fate was written in the political stars is more accurate.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Is there some weird mental block that prevents Americans officials from seeing the problem, or how its been tackled across the globe?

'As you go about your day today, KNOW there is NO LAW that Orders you to Wear a Mask. Our Governor does NOT have that unilateral power to make such orders...THERE IS NO LAW THAT STATES YOU MUST WEAR A MASK. Ask our local Police chief or officers. They will not, and cannot, cite ANYBODY for not wearing a mask because the law does not exist.' Mayor of Nevada City

What is the problem here? This isnt about freedoms or rights, its about public health, following the facts and scientfic advice.
Encouraging people not to wear masks in public is being active in helping spread the virus and kill more Americans. Its culpabale for a local leader to do this. Is that what they want? More dead Americans? I just dont get it. }}

[halfwise]

What you have to understand is that these states with highly dispersed populations are not seeing the same infection rates as other parts of the country, so that it's hard for elected officials to make the case for trading freedom to save lives. Nevada is currently seeing 4 deaths a day from covid, down from a peak of 8 deaths/day. It's basically a state of small towns surrounded by vast tracts of desert. They have a choice between doing what you would say is the right thing and get voted out of office, or pushing for people to do the right thing but not use the force of law to antagonize a population that's really not seeing the local effects of the virus.

[Pettytyrant101]

so that it's hard for elected officials to make the case for trading freedom to save lives.- Halfy

{{ Theres that word again, freedom, what the buggery has freedom got to do with this? Its a public health emergency, its got nothing, absolutely bugger all to do with freedom. I dont understand why the US is viewing this through the prism of an attack on freedoms. Its mad. This about public health.
If Amercians think this is fighting for freedom- fighting against scientific and medical advice to curb a virus, then they have lost the plot or any notion of what freedom actually is.}}

[halfwise]

You may think you live in a black and white world, but let's test your resolve. One of the biggest killers is pedestrians being hit by cars. An obvious solution is to build fences along all roadways, with automatic gates that open when traffic is stopped at a light.

You may have some luck selling this idea to residents of a big city, but do you think the residents of Dunoon would be happy to fence off all the roads. It's to save lives, how can you possibly be against it?

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Come on, a global pandemic isnt traffic- and even with traffic we have a ton of laws people have to obey about them,- you need a lisence, insurance, road tax, there are speed limits, rules of the road, we have speed bumps, crash barriers on dangerous stretches, cats eyes to aid the way at night, and a ton of other things people have to obey for the common good- they dont declare them attacks on their freedom to drive drunk, recklessly and on whatever side of the road they want because that would be stupid and endanger their lives and others.
Here we have a pandemic endangering their lives and others and they have to act for the common good, just like driving- freedom has not a thing to do with it. }}

[halfwise]

People will go along with what they feel is reasonable - and the current driving rules are felt to be reasonable, but once you go beyond what people think is reasonable - like fencing in roads, they will rebel.

People in Corona hotspots are quite happy to wear masks, they know the stress the local hospitals have been under. But those in remote areas where it really hasn't reached yet, they'll feel very differently. Are you wearing a mask in your rambles out in the woods? No, you know that's going too far. People will have much the same feeling in remoter spots.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I live in a pretty remote spot, I still social distance, Ive still kept myself in except when I have no choice but to go out for supplies, and I follow the basic rules to keep myself and my family safe.
That already seems reasonable to me. On the evidence it is reasonable.
I mean previous generations had to go to war, sit in trenches with horrendous conditions and corpses while people tried to kill them, and this lot are whining like babies because they have to stay home and watch netflix for a few months. Freedom my arse! Everything, even a virus, is partisan politics in America- even if it kills you. And that is madness- dying to score a point, literally.}}

[Mrs Figg]

I must say that I don't understand the freedom bit either. Surely logic, and respect for others, their elderly relatives and sick friends would mean that a purely subjective notion like the concept of 'freedom' can be put to one side for a few months to save thousands if not millions of lives? Wearing a mask doesn't prevent your freedom, on the contrary it liberates you because you can go around doing normal things without harming yourself or others. I saw the pictures coming from Florida, everyone packed closely onto beaches and sidewalks. Nobody social distancing, nobody wearing masks, it is mind blowing. And no wonder there is a massive spike in infections.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I partly blame the US media and news outlets- Fox for example for the first month of the pandemic had on their main page a counter of the infections and dead so far in the US and globally- but sinc eit became clear the US is dealing poorly with it and is the worst for cases globally it completely disappeared, in fact going on their main news page you'd not know there was a deadly virus, they didnt even report the increased spikes in several states. And that is for purely partisan political reasons.
A huge part of news is to inform the populace, but it seems to me certain news outlets are delibretly hiding that information to spin a fictional narrative of their own to suport their own candidate for President - problem there is its running slap bang into reality and increased sickness and death.
Add that to a President who says the virus will just go away on its own somehow, that its already under control and no need for further measures and everything can reopen, or a miraculous vaccine will apear tomorrow, or that people only wear masks to spite him and you have a recipe for utter disaster. And a woefully informed populace to the danger.}}

[Lancebloke]

I think we are not in a position to really understand this. The same as opposition to gun laws or single payer healthcare systems.

There are some things thay have been sold for so long and so vigorously that it has just become the way it is.

The one image that always comes to mind for me is when one of the first MOABs was dropped on some mountains in Afghanistan. Fox played the snippet on a background of the flag and an Eagle, played some country music and the host said something like "nothing says freedom better than this."

For a huge amount of people... blowing the fuck out of something somewhere is what America is all about. Doesn't matter who because by default the US is good.

For a huge amount of people that is totally the opposite of what the US is about.

Politicians seem to be doing all they can to divide both sides and it seems to be working, with acts like this going on. By this I mean the things going on in places like Florida, not the smaller places that Halfy is talking about. Those ones i kinda understand.

[halfwise]

I think the image of America blowing things up with flags waving and stuff is spot on. Team America portrayed this perfectly in the opening scene. Thing is, that's exactly how so many Americans see it. Starry eyed and oblivious as all hell.

[halfwise]

Here ya go, Petty.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/23/inside-florida-model-gods-waiting-room-could-point-way-managing/

[Lancebloke]

I think the image of America blowing things up with flags waving and stuff is spot on.  Team America portrayed this perfectly in the opening scene.  Thing is, that's exactly how so many Americans see it.  Starry eyed and oblivious as all hell.

OK... so the Eagle thing was misremembered but just watch these fucking clowns.

[halfwise]

Yep, it's pretty incredible.

Every now and then I try to climb inside the minds of such people, but back out pretty quick quivering with revulsion. There are those I'd consider good friends who would be nodding their heads with that segment...there's some conversational paths you just avoid.

[David H]

Just quickly form my little corner of America, since Feb my county and the county next to us have had an official total of 17 confirmed cases and 2 hospitalizations for COVID19.
But you need to factor in that 8 of those cases and both of the hospitalizations are people who have a legal residence here but don't actually live or go to the hospital here. So there are actually only 9 cases who actually live here in the 2 counties, and they're all quarantined and their contacts traced. No hospitalizations and no deaths at all.
Meanwhile many jobs have been lost, businesses closed that may never open again, and we're struggling to keep any kind of social safety net. Just trying to keep our volunteer food bank open once a week for hungry people is a challenge, and requires bending some of the lockdown rules.  
I have no doubt that people have died and will continue to die here of the fallout of the lockdown, which is fortunately now being eased a bit, but nobody has yet even been hospitalized for COVID-19.
Does that seem right to you Petty?

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Its much the same where I am Dave. In the entire Highland region of which Argyll is only a small part there have been in total  374 cases since it started, currently there are only 7 people in hospital for it, and less than 5 in intensive care (below 5 they dont record individual numbers).
But weve still been in lockdown for about 3 months now, my jobs gone, hell the entire business is gone as have many others in the area. Masks are mandatroy on public transport and recommended if your out in public at all where there are other people. Most non-essential shops and businesses remain closed. A 2m social distancing is still in place, and you cant visit more than 1 other person or household in a day (and that's a recent relaxation, up till last week you couldnt visit anyone). Shops that are open for essential goods have no more than 2 people in them at a time, supermarkets have long queues spaced out at 2m distances, with only a small set number ever allowed in the store at one time. America is a free for all in comparison.
Its hard and unfortunate but thats the price that you have to pay to preserve life. We can rebuild economies and lives later, you cant if the lives are gone.
That America lacks an adequate social security net or care for the poorest and most vulernable, and having your health care tied to employment are all areas I have said America is weak in for years and years, this epidemic is just exposing it more than ever.
So does lockdown, with all its hardships seem right to me? yes it does, you only need look at the charts for cases, deaths and hospitalisations in Scotland to see how effective it has been, how many lives saved. And yes its bloody hard, every month is hard now, every bill a nightmare. But its for the good of all. And so long as the numbers and evidence back up that good I do think its the right thing to do, and worth it. And nothing, absoultely nothing, to do with freedoms. I have temporary given up some minor selfish things (doing what I want when I want, seeing who I want when I want) because its the right thing, based on the evidence, for everyone, for my community and country, not what's easiest for me.}}

[halfwise]

Petty - read that article about Florida I posted half a page up. There's more than one way to look at this.

[David H]

{{ So does lockdown, with all its hardships seem right to me? yes it does, you only need look at the charts for cases, deaths and hospitalisations...}}

That's not what I asked Petty.

Don't get me wrong. I'm proud of the fact that although our state of Washington had the first detected cases of COVID-19 in the US back in Feb (and also some of the first deaths in a series of nursing homes near Seattle) our governor quickly enacted some of the first restrictions in the nation, and we've now dropped from the unenviable number 1 position in the nation to 23rd of the 50 states. It wasn't easy for anybody, but we got the wildfire under control. 6ft distancing and masks are normal now (but not the law). Shops have limits on customers and lines on the floor. Until last week restaurants could only do take-out. Now some are trying outside dining.

But you talk about the charts. In the case of our corner of the state, the charts show only 9 positive tests over the last 5 months (all have recovered), zero hospitalizations, and zero deaths. ZERO! At the same time access to things like food and basic health care (cancer diagnosis, monitoring of blood thinners etc.) has been greatly restricted as local clinics and public transportation have been shut down for safety. This is particularly hard on the elderly. I understand the logic, but I'm hearing stories of deaths that should have been avoidable. People I know. But none from COVID-19. That seems wrong to me.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ You asked if it seemed right to me, I said yes. Not the poor state of US health care, Im sorry folks who should be getting seen arent.
I have a family member recovering from chemotherapy, which puts her immediately in the most at risk group due to no immune system, but her treatment has been uninterupted, they just changed how and where it was being dealt with due to the virus. But her treatment hasnt stopped, and of course her drugs and treatment are paid for under the NHS. So no worries abouther personal finances affecting her ability to get treatment either.
We have an excellent bunch of District Nurses here who operate within the community, backed up by the NHS.

We dont have figures for individual council areas here, only for health boards and we fall under Highland, whch is not densely populated, but is a large area, so its hard to be sure or exact of local numbers.
But they are very similar to yours, certiainly single digit. The Cowal Peninsula is not hard to close down, theres only one road in and out and the ferry across the Clyde. And with no one allowed to travel more than 5 miles from home unless in an emergency, and the ferries only operating for emergency vehicles its been effectively shut down for months.
And on the food front there is a local food bank, but since the virus hit local people have stepped up too, and all the old phone booths in town have been converted into places you can just stick food in as you pass, and anyone who needs can just take what they want.
Heres one of them-



Obviously its still tough- lots of us have lost our jobs, many busineeses have gone out of business. But were here and alive to complain about it and in the end thats what counts. Everything else can be rebuilt, a lost life cant be returned.
And even the very poorest will have their rent paid by the government and roughly £70 per individual a week in cash for essentials such as food and heating under our social security net (the position I am currently in having lost my job to events).
Yeah thats still hard if your coming form a full time working wage, but its not impossible, its not starvation or homelessness. Its just cutting back, curbing on luxuries and making do.
But the point is its working. The whole country is seeing a steady downward trend in cases and deaths, but that wont work if its piecemeal, we all have to make those sacrifices together to make that work and beat this thing. No point one bit of the country getting the numbers down close to or at zero if just across the water they have increasing cases, it'd only be a matter of time before it reached us again and we'd be starting all over again- and no one wants that. }}

[David H]

So I have to ask Petty, have all the village kirks throughout the Highlands and Islands been closed and shuttered for this? I have very fond memories of getting to know the entire village population at the Sunday meeting back in my hitchhiking days in the 80's. Places like Tongue in the north and Lockmaddy out in the islands. There was a lot of spirit up there, and not much love for rules coming out of the cities. Unless things have changed, it's hard to imagine they'd suffer a Sunday lockdown quietly....

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Yup churches, synagogoues etc have been closed throughout lockdown- services are being done online where there is demand for it (but got to remember at last census less than 50% of the popualtion here said they had any religion or religous beliefs, so it not much of a concern for most folk here. In fact Ive not heard any complaints about it at all.

If you look at approval ratings there also doesnt seem much dissent with the Scottish Governments policies, lockdown or how they are treating it-

'A survey for BBC Scotland suggested that a majority of people thought Boris Johnson and UK ministers had handled the pandemic "fairly" or "very" badly.
Meanwhile 82% of respondents said First Minister Nicola Sturgeon had handled the crisis well overall, with only 8% saying she had done badly.
A total of 70% said the UK had entered lockdown "too late" on 23 March - and 77% said that easing restrictions "too quickly" would be "a bigger risk for Scotland" than easing them too slowly.
A total of 82% of respondents said Ms Sturgeon had handled the outbreak "fairly" or "very" well, to 8% "fairly" or "very" badly, giving her a net approval rating of +74. The Scottish government's score was +67.
Meanwhile 30% of those who took part said the prime minister was handling the outbreak "fairly" or "very" well, compared to 55% "fairly" or "very" badly - a net approval rating of -25. The UK government's overall rating was -17.
The NHS in Scotland was given a +90 approval rating for its handling of the crisis'- BBC News

And trust in Sturgeons judgement on this is very high -

77% of respondents said "moving too quickly" to ease restrictions was "a bigger risk to Scotland" than moving too slowly, compared to 19% who said the opposite.
A total of 81% said Scotland's restrictions should be lifted at a different time to those in the rest of the UK "if the Scottish government believes that is necessary", with 19% saying the lockdown should be lifted north of the border "at the same time as in the rest of the UK".

So with reagrds to people willing to comply with the restirctions and lockdown, and trust our government is making decisons in our best iterests are very high overall given the situation. No one hear is talking about loss of freedoms. Just what is the best way forward. And for now folk seem happy to let the Scottish govenrment make those evaluations, and to go along with their plans to deal with it.}}