Re: We're all doomed! Doomed I say- the Corona virus thread for panicking in!

[Mrs Figg]

yeah definitely a crabbit farmer-worrying Sean Connery

love the rambles with Petty, I have a quarry near my house, I might try to do a vid when the weather gets better, its cold and rainy at the moment.

[Orwell]

{{ Sean Connery?!! He's an east coaster!!!!

But heres first one anyway, though think yourself lucky! Sean Connery   }}

Of course, I think of you as Dr Who’s (Julia Figg’s) companion... you know the one....

I would not have expected it, but at times you sound almost crabbit....

[Orwell]

yeah definitely a crabbit farmer-worrying Sean Connery

love the rambles with Petty, I have a quarry near my house, I might try to do a vid when the weather gets better, its cold and rainy at the moment.

I’ll look forward to that.

[azriel]

https://www.facebook.com/us.funnynurses/videos/2529741657288097/

Id feel better, for having a nurse like one of these either doing my stitches or whipping something out

[halfwise]

The personality definitely makes a nurse. Those interactions make all the difference in the world.

[Orwell]

This may be a dumb question, one which has occurred to me now and then, but I’ve never got around to asking:

When governments borrow money, who are the lenders? Do banks or corporations keep cash in pots under the bed? Or in money ‘pools’? Are these literal pools full of cash?

Another question:

If a virus passes onto more and more people in the ‘herd’, is there more chance of it mutating with increased transmission? That is, rather than killing a high proportion of the elderly or otherwise vulnerable, is there a heightened potential for it to morph and start killing the less, obviously, vulnerable? I wonder about this because flu never goes away and seems to mutate every flu season. Is covid-19 likely to do the same?

[Pettytyrant101]

[Mrs Figg]

There may be evidence that having the MMR vaccine could protect people from the virus.

https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-could-the-pandemic-be-controlled-using-existing-vaccines-like-mmr-or-bcg-136429

[halfwise]

can't answer the second question (I know just enough to recognize my incompetence) but I know even less about monetary theory, which these days qualifies me to make pronouncements with utter confidence.

Countries which enjoy a large amount of faith on all fronts can essentially print money, if it goes to things that continue to engender faith as holding value, such as paying salaries for work. This is how many larger countries can spend their way out of a depression. More typically countries will sell bonds to all who are willing to buy them, whether their own countrymen or foriegners. This is how a major country who has no good reason to be in debt to other countries manages to do so anyway. Minor countries must borrow if they don't have enough resources themselves, and this is how they get tossed on the winds of the major powers.

Countries can and should print and hand out money to get us through this world wide shutdown, but some have a greater ability to do this without eroding trust than others do.

Money is nothing more than a way to keep track of good faith. It is not a conserved quantity, but it's in most people's interest to believe it is. There is a theory that money was created so that armies would have something to trade that looked better than just taking at gunpoint; but the only reason people would honor this money is because they knew they may end up at gunpoint if they didn't.

David once recommend Debt: the first 5,000 years by David Graeber. It nicely puts things in perspective.

This may be a dumb question, one which has occurred to me now and then, but I’ve never got around to asking:

When governments borrow money, who are the lenders? Do banks or corporations keep cash in pots under the bed? Or in money ‘pools’? Are these literal pools full of cash?

Another question:

If a virus passes onto more and more people in the ‘herd’, is there more chance of it mutating with increased transmission? That is, rather than killing a high proportion of the elderly or otherwise vulnerable, is there a heightened potential for it to morph and start killing the less, obviously, vulnerable? I wonder about this because flu never goes away and seems to mutate every flu season. Is covid-19 likely to do the same?

[Orwell]

can't answer the second question (I know just enough to recognize my incompetence) but I know even less about monetary theory, which these days qualifies me to make pronouncements with utter confidence.

Countries which enjoy a large amount of faith on all fronts can essentially print money, if it goes to things that continue to engender faith as holding value, such as paying salaries for work.  This is how many larger countries can spend their way out of a depression.  More typically countries will sell bonds to all who are willing to buy them, whether their own countrymen or foriegners.  This is how a major country who has no good reason to be in debt to other countries manages to do so anyway.  Minor countries must borrow if they don't have enough resources themselves, and this is how they get tossed on the winds of the major powers.

Countries can and should print and hand out money to get us through this world wide shutdown, but some have a greater ability to do this without eroding trust than others do.

Money is nothing more than a way to keep track of good faith.  It is not a conserved quantity, but it's in most people's interest to believe it is.  There is a theory that money was created so that armies would have something to trade that looked better than just taking at gunpoint; but the only reason people would honor this money is because they knew they may end up at gunpoint if they didn't.

David once recommend Debt: the first 5,000 years by David Graeber. It nicely puts things in perspective.

This may be a dumb question, one which has occurred to me now and then, but I’ve never got around to asking:

When governments borrow money, who are the lenders? Do banks or corporations keep cash in pots under the bed? Or in money ‘pools’? Are these literal pools full of cash?

Another question:

If a virus passes onto more and more people in the ‘herd’, is there more chance of it mutating with increased transmission? That is, rather than killing a high proportion of the elderly or otherwise vulnerable, is there a heightened potential for it to morph and start killing the less, obviously, vulnerable? I wonder about this because flu never goes away and seems to mutate every flu season. Is covid-19 likely to do the same?

Thank you sir. But I am no clearer.

[Orwell]

There may be evidence that having the MMR vaccine could protect people from the virus.

https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-could-the-pandemic-be-controlled-using-existing-vaccines-like-mmr-or-bcg-136429

Let’s hope so.

I would really like to know if covid-19 is more likely to mutate if more people get it... Will have to see if I can find something on this point. Herd Theory or not, I’d prefer a vaccine than getting a dose, undiluted, into my old body.

[Lancebloke]

Hi Orwell,

Basically, governments issue bonds which is pretty much an IOU with some interest. These are usually bought up by things like pension funds and private equity companies, some of which may be state owned.

I think Halfy's point was also around the fact that this is easier for "rich" countries to do because of the fact that they have a history of making money and paying back. That is where you get country level credit ratings which is a market assessment of how likely that country is to pay its debts in the future.

[Orwell]

Hi Orwell,

Basically, governments issue bonds which is pretty much an IOU with some interest. These are usually bought up by things like pension funds and private equity companies, some of which may be state owned.

I think Halfy's point was also around the fact that this is easier for "rich" countries to do because of the fact that they have a history of making money and paying back. That is where you get country level credit ratings which is a market assessment of how likely that country is to pay its debts in the future.

Thanks sir. Read both your responses (Halfy’s again after I read yours), and I think I get it. For some reason, I am thinking of a time when a country or two in South America were issuing $1000 notes that were worth about 1 cent each (Aus). Vague memory. Maybe false. Vague idea of economics too, lol. Somewhere someone is making money from money. That’s my angle. It seems peculiar...and sinister, somehow.... Not the Illuminati, I hope!

[halfwise]

Your memory is good.  Being small countries without vast resources of their own and no reason to have faith in the government to make good on what they say the value is, the value of their money was based on things outside the country and out of its control.  Essentially the value of their money was a conserved quantity, so printing more made the value go down.

More established countries can say "this is what this amount of currency is worth, dammit" and somewhat make it stick; though normally they don't mess with it and let the value float.   In the current crisis I think governments can get away with just giving out money because it should be circulating anyway.  The trouble is they're stupidly going to do the usual book keeping, which will ruin everything.  I think they should just quietly do some slight of hand to keep this system of trust we've built up flowing, but not clearly add to the government debt.   Unfortunately shit-heads who insist on saying money is an absolutely conserved quantity under all circumstances would cry foul and destroy the system of trust.  But if everyone keeps their mouths shut we could go full-on socialistic for a month or so, treat farmers and middlemen and shopkeepers as the heroes they are for once, and it should all come out okay.

Quietly keep the system going, ease back into the old system once things are back to normal and don't mention to anyone that the dealer was slipping extra cards onto the table.  The card counters can be quietly hauled off and drowned and everyone else will be innocently happy with the money they still have which they would have had anyway if they never played the game to begin with.  And the businesses which had loss of income balanced by non-payment of salary will be back to where they started and things can continue.

[halfwise]

Going back to other things I'm not qualified to comment on: Orwell - your supposition that if the virus spreads to more hosts it has more chances to mutate sounds right to me.   Herd immunity may be a chimera just like it is for flu.   Then again, if mutation is a function both of time and population size, perhaps letting a raging infection burn through the population may mean herd immunity is reached before it has time to mutate?

I've often heard paleontological geneticists talk about the mutation clock, which assumes mutations happen at a constant rate, presumably due to things like radiation.  But you'd think there'd be transcription errors as well, so with a burgeoning population (or burgeoning spread of virus) the mutation rate would be accelerated.  Somebody knows the answer to this, but it's not me.

[azriel]

So, it can either gather strength or fade out, if enough people catch it & spread it ? And the time for mutation is when it reaches full strength ? Is the mutation, if there is one, be more difficult to control and will it cause secondary problems like ? abnormal defects in unborn children ? advanced degeneration maybe ? Can this virus develop resistance to our bombardment of it ? How long is a piece of string

[azriel]

yes but, will they ? can they ? When this is over, & one day it will be, don't give up heart, How will Rumpy Trumpy be viewed after this ? My best wishes got to you ( USA )

[halfwise]

That was great! How did I miss it when Petty posted it?

[Mrs Figg]

I have been doing some research in scientific papers and all results seem to show that the MMR vaccine protects against the worst symptoms of covid 19. If you haven't had this vaccine I would go to your doctor or clinic and get it done asap. I intend to get the vaccine next week. it wont do you any harm and would protect you from measles anyway. It is the measles part of the vaccine which seems to help. Get your families to have it too, and obviously wear a mask when going to see a doctor.

 
This article is highly technical and from 2014, it is related to the SARS outbreak,  but you get the drift.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042682214000051


https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/25417/20200422/29-percent-similarity-between-coronavirus-rubella-virus-help-mmr-vaccine.htm

[halfwise]

Hmm. Seem to remember MMR hurts, or maybe that was just the gamma globulin.

[Lancebloke]

I think this version of virus attacks the body in a different way to things like SARS and MERS but if you can get MMR anyway then can't hurt!

[Mrs Figg]

I think covid 19 is also called SARS, so maybe it has similarities?

[Orwell]

You know, with the uncertainty of covid-19 and what it can and can’t do. Mutate, or lead to unseen other complications down the track, the safety first principle remains sound, to me...if you care about actual lives.

Honestly, I live in a country with a conservative Christian as Prime Minister. The way he is handling things, with basically full support of everyone else including the Opposition parties, is to care about lives before the economy. Which has made me think about ‘conservatism”. The kind I can favour, and the kind I can’t. (And I may just imagine these exist!)

Conservatism is about supporting the economy so ‘everyone’ is treated fairly and the genuinely parasitical (not the sick and otherwise meek) should be made to contribute. But actual lives are utmostly important. Jesus would approve of most of this, I guess. The people put ’before’ the economy at end of day, if a choice must be made.

Conservatism is about ‘dog eat dog’, wealth is good of itself, and poverty is bad and maybe, if it’s thought about at all, probably a punishment for sin. I see a discord here with the teaching of Jesus and his sayings about ‘mammon’. Yet many Christians in America seem to have an opposite view on ‘mammon’ to our own Prime Minister in Australia. Mammon is ‘good’ somehow, in America, and must be put first to help the Godly, perhaps. Let the sinners (or, in my view, the meek) die. It’s as clinical as that looking from where I sit.

[Lancebloke]

I think covid 19 is also called SARS, so maybe it has similarities?

SARS and MERS are caused by a coronavirus but are different to the current covid-19.

[Pettytyrant101]