All New Who

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ I honestly don't understand how this episode got the green light. I dont even know how the costume designs got to the point they thought this was good enough for their alien characters-





Its the sort of sci-fi design I mght have expected to see in a show for 4-8 year olds, ten years ago.    It boggles my mind this got approval. }}

Wait, having a crappy wig is supposed to make them pass as Aliens?

Looks like a low budget cosplay.

{{ Thats a disservice to low budget cosplayers! But seriously, how? How did this get passed? I can only think it was supposed to call back to 80's Who and stuff like Paradise Towers. But this is way worse! }}

I never got round to watching any of the Colin Baker/Sylvester Mccoy stories (at least not in full-seen various clips and scenes from a few) but back then the production crew had much more limited budgets and never made the mistake of trying too hard to punch about their wait, even at its worst and cheapest much of classic who has a wobbly low-fi charm i.m.o, the bubble wrap slug from ark in space, the zaarbi suits from web planet and the snake puppet from snakedance were all rather crap even for their day but I still have an odd appreciation for them all, it was campy cheesy fun.

Not the dull, try hard preachy talking of the Chibnall years.

https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/big-finish-production-update?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=production_update&utm_content=news

Wise decision

(On the subject of advance recording I recall reading somewhere Tom Baker may already have another six or seven series worth of 4th Doctor audios already recorded and ready for release-albeit four or five years in the future!)

I'm guessing you may read this when you're sober and wonder about it as much as I just did.

malickfan wrote:I never got round to watching any of the Colin Baker/Sylvester Mccoy stories (at least not in full-seen various clips and scenes from a few) but back then the production crew had much more limited budgets and never made the mistake of trying too hard to punch about their wait, even at its worst and cheapest much of classic who has a wobbly low-fi charm i.m.o, the bubble wrap slug from ark in space, the zaarbi suits from web planet and the snake puppet from snakedance were all rather crap even for their day but I still have an odd appreciation for them all, it was campy cheesy fun.

Not the dull, try hard preachy talking of the Chibnall years.

{{ Im missing whats amiss there Halfy, Malicks post seems fine to me (but then the chances of me ever reading it sober are fairly slim )


Anyhow I was considering the whole Timeless Child thing. And I think there is a way out of it, not a good way out, but a slightly less bad way out.

First the problem.
Ive already mentioned some of the continuity issues it all throws up, and all the other Time Lord history it throws out or distrupts, but in the end, annoying and unnecessary as all that is its not the real problem.
The real problem is what it does to the character and very nature of the Doctor.
You see when we first meet the Doctor he is not to be blunt, very nice. He's not just grumpy and self-important, arrogant and pompous (all traits that would continue in every version in varying degrees) but he was also occasionally selfish to the point of cruelty. He kidnaps his first human 'companions' Barbera and Ian against their will at a time when he didnt know how to control the TARDIS or how to get it to ever take them back to their own time or even planet.
In the first story, had Ian not intervened, he would have caved an injured mans skull in with a rock rather than risk being slowed down in their escape by him. And he is determined as is the code of his people that they never interfere in any historic events.
It is only through his experiences, and in particular the humanity displayed by Ian and Barbera and hs subsequent human companions that he over time becomes the Doctor we know.

The name Doctor seems to have been picked entirerly arbitary by the 1st Doctor, and whilst hiding on Earth he used Doctor as presumably nothing more than to give an air of professional distinction. And in fact called himself Doctor Foreman, a compsoite of the choosen Doctor and the name of the scrapyard the TARDIS was located in, Foreman's Yard. And even then he seems to have just picked that name off the top of his head when enrolling Susuan at th elocal school and then forgotten he even did it, as when Ian first calls him "Doctor Foreman" a puzzled and impatient 1st Doctor responds "Hmmm? Doctor who?" But offers no other name so Ian and Barbera simply keep calling him Doctor.
A very long time later, in the 12th Doctor story Into the Dalek the Doctor says of his name-

"See, all those years ago when I first began I was just running. I called myself the Doctor, but it was just a name. And then I went to Skaro. And then I met you lot and I understood who I was. The Doctor was not the Daleks."

Ths notion the Doctor has of his name was also expanded upon in the 'Promise' explained first in Name of the Doctor

"Look, my name, my real name, that is not the point. The name I chose is the Doctor. The name you choose, it's like, it's like a promise you make."

and the Promise itself in the 50th-

"Never cruel or cowardly. Never give up, never give in."

And 12 finally puts it at its plainest in his debate with Davros-

"There's no such thing as the Doctor. I'm just a bloke in a box, telling stories. And I didn't come here because I'm ashamed. A bit of shame never hurt anyone. I came because you're sick and you asked. And because sometimes, on a good day, if I try very hard, I'm not some old Time Lord who ran away. I'm the Doctor."

You might be wondering what the Doctors choice of name has to do with anything. But what Moffat and RTD saw and drew out of early Who was that the Doctor began as an ordinary, privileged Time Lord. He was not inherently good, kind, altruistic, helpful or at all interested in fighting against the evils of the universe or in interfering in events. He was a renegade on the run from his own people in a stolen ship.
He evolved and became the Doctor, began to understand who he truly was freed of all the influences of his own arrogant, stuffy, self important race and their society and inherent sens eof superiority. His rebelous spirit became tied to a spirit of seeing injustice close up, seeing pain and death and the distress it causes and just feeling that he has to try to do something to help having seen, and been influenced by, the moral example of his companions humanity to others.

As 12 says-

"Winning? Is that what you think it's about? I'm not trying to win. I'm not doing this because I want to beat someone, or because I hate someone, or because, because I want to blame someone. It's not because it's fun and God knows it's not because it's easy. It's not even because it works, because it hardly ever does. I do what I do, because it's right! Because it's decent! And above all, it's kind. It's just that. Just kind. If I run away today, good people will die. If I stand and fight, some of them might live. Maybe not many, maybe not for long. Hey, you know, maybe there's no point in any of this at all, but it's the best I can do, so I'm going to do it. And I will stand here doing it till it kills me....What would you die for? Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand, is where I fall. Stand with me. These people are terrified. Maybe we can help, a little. Why not, just at the end, just be kind?"

What the Doctor gives us in a hero, what makes the Doctor unique as a hero, is that he isnt special because of some inherent trait, an inclination to to good, or some super powers- to us he may seem to have super powers, regeneration, the ability to survive more extremes of temperature, oxygen deravation etc has a Time machine that is bigger on the inside, but for a Time Lord thats all normal, he's no different from the rest. Starts off no different from the rest in attitude too.
What makes him the Doctor is choice.
He sees the evils and reacts to them out of compassion and a desire to prevent further suffering. He doesnt interfere to be a hero-

"Thank you! I am not a good man! I am not a bad man. I am not a hero. And I'm definitely not a president. And no, I'm not an officer. Do you know what I am? I am an idiot, with a box and a screwdriver. Just passing through, helping out, learning."

His experiences have made him have to choose, and he has choosen to act, the manne rin which he acts -to help where he can- comes from his human companions, his moral compass.
This i all summed up well by Rose in the final 9th Doctor story Parting of the Ways-

"It was a better life. And I don't mean all the travelling and seeing aliens and spaceships and things. That don't matter. The Doctor showed me a better way of living your life. You know he showed you too. That you don't just give up. You don't just let things happen. You make a stand. You say no. You have the guts to do what's right when everyone else just runs away."

But the Timeless Child being the Doctor. Well now she is special, unique. With unknown superpowers other Time Lords dont even know about or possess. She is no longer a normal Time lord who choose to be the Doctor, who developed the idea of what that meant to them to be the Doctor into a personal promise of standards to achieve, to live up to, as 12 says upon realising whyhe took on the face of a long forgotten insignficant Roman citizen of Pompey he once saved inhis 10th incarnation only because his human companion's, Donna's, compassion and humanity made him see it was the right thing to do -

"I know where I got this face, and I know what it's for..To remind me. To hold me to the mark. I'm the Doctor, and I save people."

Now with the Timeless Child the Doctor was always the Doctor, countless times over before the 1st Doctor ever came about, they were just made to forget.
So the development of the idea of the Doctor which began with 1 is now replaced by 1 simply becoming the person they had already been countless times and always were, but had simply forgotten. 1 was always destined to be the good heoric life saving figure he became no matter what. Its no longer the experiences with the companions, the exposure to humanity over a long period that brought him to his position, but just the pendulum swinging back to who he always was before the memory wipe. The Timeless Child. A space Jesus with unknowable powers and infinte regenrations. The reason Time Lord exist and Gallifrey came to be at all. The source and founder of all. Themost important special person in the universe.
And by making the charcater that it destroys all the character development that came before it in one awful fell swoop.

So the solution? Well the only way I see out of it without it seeming a total cop out from where Chibnal has put himself is that the Master is lying. He is unreliable as a narrator so the room is there for it, and that the Timeless Child is in fact him not the Doctor. This might better be used to explain why he was angry and why he took revenge on the Time Lords for it. I still dont like it, it still shifts that balance between Master and Doctor. But if Chibbers have to wreck something I'd rather it be that than the character, history, and over 50 years of development of the Doctor.
Sadly though I dont see how he can do that and work round the Ruth Doctor without making her what Chibbers has vehemently stated she is not- an alternate reality Doctor (I'd favour the one with clone 10 in it, some wibbly wobblystuff about how he could regen again, and she would be the 13th version of that Doctor) and thats the only ways I can see to patch this mess up in any fashion that restores the character and nature of the Doctor we have been watching all these years.

Its that or a Bobby Ewing Dallas style thing where 12 just walks out the TARDIS shower and it was all just a horrible dream Bill had! But at this point I'd accept that over what we have now.   }}

  I like the Bobby Ewing theory. Fake Jodie Doctor could wake up on someones sofa with a hangover after going to a Cosplay party, and its all been a horrible drunken dream.

I read that alot of BBC dramas are being pushed back/suspending production for a few months because of the virus.

Series 13 of Dr Who was supposed to start filming in September apparently, though rumours are floating around that it may be delayed for months.

Given the mixed reception and falling ratings of the Chibnall/Whittaker era, and that two of the companions are leaving perhaps an extended hiatus could be a good thing for the series, could chibnall reboot his own era?

Or may the BBC see this as an excuse to rest the show?

This is cool, Lance Parkin (author of various Doctor Who audios and novels) has put up a free e-book download of the 8th Doctor Novel 'The Dying Days' on his twitter account :

https://twitter.com/ParkinLance/status/1240372743155191811

It was one of the last of the Virgin New Adventures novels, published in 1997 and the first full length story with the 8th Doctor after the TV Movie, it's been out of print for many years and is one of the rarest and most expensive who novels to purchase on the secondary market, so if anyone is interested in this, act now!

{{ Oh nice one- cheers Malick Nabbed a copy of it to read during this lock down period! }}

I think the reason Malick's post sounded drunk to me is due to my lack of Who familiarity. Forget all you know and re-read it, it's quite an experience!

halfwise wrote:I think the reason Malick's post sounded drunk to me is due to my lack of Who familiarity.  Forget all you know and re-read it, it's quite an experience!

For reference this is what I was talking about, the 'bubble wrap' slug from Ark In Space (Tom Baker's first story):





(I've only watched that story once so I can't remember what the alien was supposed to be, i think it was supposed to represent the larvae of some space insect)

The Zarbi, from the William Hartnell story 'The Web Planet' (quite possibly the strangest Doctor Who story so far, the tardis lands on a planet populated by beemen and giant ants who are at war with each other...it's a hugely ambitious but confusing mess of an episode):



The giant snake was actually from the 5th Doctor story 'Kinda' (also a very weird story as I recall):



All of these were naff even for their day and the low budget, but it has a campy cheesy charm i.m.o that fits with the tone of Classic Who, the crappy costume designs from that recent episode are rather less forgivable (even assuming Chibnall included those designs as an intentional throwback to low budget old school Doctor Who-the difference is old Doctor Who was usually escapist campy fun, not bogged down with plodding dialogue or preachy drama like the Chibnall episodes).

One of the things I like about Doctor who is that it's always been a bit silly, campy/tacky, the low budget charm and British humour combined with an element of fun masking the flaws, from what I have seen/read about the Chibnall episodes it all seems a bit serious/preachy and try hard of late...

Classic Who was definitely campy, I'm not sure NuWho totally captured that. And with camp you have to be all-in or not at all. Like the original Batman series - it worked by being intentionally campy with main characters who were intentionally playing it straight to enhance the campiness.

yep part of old Who's charm was were the costumes that looked like they were made in a garden shed.

the 'bubble wrap' slug from Ark In Space- Malick

{{ Now in fairness bubblewrap wasnt invented until 1957, didnt take off till the early 60's and didnt have common use till the late 70's (before that it had only been seen in more expensive packaging such as for the early IBM office computers, which the average person never saw of course).
When I saw the 'bubblewrap' guy, half consumed in it, then the later larvae 'maggot' like stage as a 4 year old child it was the single most terrifying thing I had seen in my short life. It was also the first 'body-horror' concept I can recall encountering in narrative.
I'd be at least 8 before I actually saw bubble wrap in real life.
So in fairness to the production it was not a common sight yet (especially painted green) and the effect, certainly on its young audience (and given how many folk remember that particular monster I'd guess I wasnt alone) was big and memorable.
In its day it worked perfectly, its only in hindsight now bubble wrap is such a common packagaing that it seems silly.

As to the Zarbi and the other insects- it wasnt just ambitious for the time hell itd be ambitious to try to pull off now with a full movie budget and all the cgi! I mean hats off for ambition, but yeah they werent just reaching beyond their means there, they were reaching about 50 years ahead of technology to pull it off!
It'd actually be great to see them try to do a return to Web Planet and see if they can get the effects to match the originals ambitions.

And yeah Kinda is sort of trippy, but I like it and at least it gave Tegan a decent story.}}

{{ A proper Doctor}}

Now my face is all wet. A proper Doctor indeed!

{{ Got me thinking that about what it is about current Who thats missing, at its heart its not Who. But why?
And I realised after watching a youtube fanvid what it is.
In the past any given Who story could have a social commentary theme, Green Death from classic springs immediately to mind with its enviromental message, or Oxygen with its stance on rampant captalism from NuWho, but whilst they were the main themes of those stories those stories also contained another more basic theme. One that underpins all of Who and gives its feel episode to episode when usually setting, plot and all the supporting cast change, and its Who always had underneath all else hope and an uplifting mood.
It wasnt just the Doctor always won, this isnt American TV he doesnt, he often loses, but the spirit of the character and of the show also found a way to bring any tragic events or personal pain to the Doctor with an uplifting theme elsewhere to balance it.
If there is one thing could sum up what knits all of Who together from 60's till now, its that sense of optimism in humanity.



And its almost entirely missing from Chibnall era.

Watch the following video (though its not absolutely necessary to following the ongoing argument, but its a nice vid. Its what got me on this train of thought in first place). Then watch the scene where Graham turns to 13 for comfort.



Ok I cant show you the 13 scene as the BBC seem to have purged it all from youtube- probably as so many found it distasteful -so here is the transcript of it, and know its even worse when seen. But here is allegedly the Doctor comforting their companion of two years when they are afraid and trying to confide their fears in her-

GRAHAM: The thing is, Doc, I worry about getting sick again. You know, about the... about the cancer coming back. And I didn't know who to say it to, so I thought I'd say it to you. You know, seeing as you're a doctor. You know, cos once... once you have it, it's with you the whole time. Not quite a shadow, but... Hey, don't get me wrong. I mean, my check-ups, they're all fine, but it... it made me think, you know and, er, I thought I should talk about it, cos those nightmares, I mean... Well, they made me realise that the fear is... is... is still there, you know.
(Long pause.)
DOCTOR: I should say a reassuring thing now, shouldn't I?
GRAHAM: Yeah, probably.
DOCTOR: I'm still quite socially awkward, so I'm just going to subtly walk towards the console and look at something. And then, in a minute, I'll think of something that I should've said... that might've been helpful.
GRAhAM: Ha! Okay. Well, I'm glad we had this chat, eh?
DOCTOR: Yeah.
GRAHAM: Yeah.

As a direct comparison here is the 2nd Doctor comforting his companion, Victoria, who he only just met an epiosde ago and who recently lost her father to the Daleks-



Heres 11 comforting Amy at their apparent failure to inspire hope and life in Vincent Van Gogh and prevent his suicide-



And 12's response to Clara betraying him and trying to force him to bring her boyfrined Danny back after he was killed in her distress and grief-



And 13 to remind you-

DOCTOR: I'm still quite socially awkward, so I'm just going to subtly walk towards the console and look at something. And then, in a minute, I'll think of something that I should've said..

Yeah when you have a better writer who understands the character and show.  
We could really do with our Who to be optimist and uplifitng about now- instead we just got a series of dark and misery badly delivered, which seemed to set out to delibretly ruin everything that had preceeded itself. And that has nothing to do for my tastes with what Doctor Who has always been since the beginning, fundementally optimistic and uplifting.
Oh and of course, ridiculous, silly, eccentric fun!!



}}

{{ Doctor Who reactors had a mass Day of the Doctor watch. You may recall when the 50th Anniverary was in cinemas it had a humorous introduction in the form of Strax.
Well so did the rewatch, provided by Strax actor Dan Starkey and written by Moffat himself - interesting to see how he pokes fun at Chibnal era as well as his own episode. }}

{{ Further to the above rewatch event of Day of the Doctor, one of the BBC ident folk who has been sent home due to the virus uploaded an offical ident intro for it they did from home}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Doctor Who reactors had a mass Day of the Doctor watch. You may recall when the 50th Anniverary was in cinemas it had a humorous introduction in the form of Strax.
Well so did the rewatch, provided by Strax actor Dan Starkey and written by Moffat himself - interesting to see how he pokes fun at Chibnal era as well as his own episode. }}

I've missed Strax...

I still think its a shame that Moffat entirely discarded the 11th Doctor's 'looking for gallifrey' arc hinted at the end of TDOTD, I always found the timelords/gallifrey kinda...boring? but it would have been an interesting arc nonetheless, and given more weight to Gallifrey's return in Hell Bent.

Still annoyed Chibnall blew Gallifrey straight back up again, I mean yeah it's kinda boring and yeah he might not have been able to think of any interesting stories to tell with the timelords, but it's still a very lazy decision and makes the 9th Doctor seem less tragic now, knowing the Master was the one to actually properly blow it up.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-23/doctor-who-rose-rewatch/

this sounds good fun, but I don't have Netflix.

It's worth getting. I'm not doing a combination of DVDs and streaming, lowest plan for both. Because the DVDs have all the old films, the streaming has a lot of more current goodies. Not sure about the DVD supply in europe though.

{{ This came out- the 13th Doctor reassures her fans -she has them?! - during self isolation. And whilst its certainly not the worst thing she has done as the Doctor (see any of her actual episodes) it did kind of strike me as a bit 'oh bugger Moffat, Starkey and Campbell got together and did the Day of the Doctor thing, we need to remind people Jodie is the Doctor and do something too!'.
Its also not as fun or entertaining or witty as the Strax video- but then that does accurately sum up the difference in eras! }}





{{edit add- Figg you dont need netflix- its on the BBCiplayer- just watch on there but join in the twitter stream at same time }}

She does have fans. Some have watched some but not all of season 1-7 of New who and LOVE the dynamic between JodieDoc and the companions, thinks the plot twists were unexpected and good, is thrilled about the last episode and can hardly wait for the special.

And some click "like" on such a post.

And some think "don't reply. Don't reply. Leave it. This person has seen Donna Noble and Martha and Rose and prefers this. There's nothing you can do. Don't reply."

That is at least a sort of bright spot in the past Who discussions. We always thought the other party could see the light. We always thought we had enough in common and similar sense of taste, so the frustration of not agreeing made us bonkers and angry. Those who like Chibber's Who... They are not my people.