All New Who

But before you all go overboard with rage and hate, please tell me how long it took before 12 was fully in place as The Doctor? - Amarie

{{{ Tennant I never warmed to hugely, but he felt like and was recognisably the Doctor still by end of Xmas Invasion- confidant, brash, arrogant, clever and with a dark no second chances edge, Matt Smith was the Doctor for me by the end of 11th Hour, and 12 by the restaurant scene in Deep Breath. In all three cases a commanding, screen stealing presence with a Doctor who comes into their own but is still clever, arrogant ect And there are no plot holes- some set up stuff for later, but no plot holes.

Jodies problem is the character she is playing is not very much like the Doctor in my view- she constantly asks everyone around her "what this?" Whats that about then?" ect- she is the Doctor, super intelligent, why is she coming across as not very bright? This stretches to how she cant command a room or take charge of it without her companions having to back her up as the one actually in charge. And Jodies acting is a factor here, not just how her Doctor is being written, the facial expression she pulls when something is being explained to her make her look like the village idiot-






Worse of all for the first female version- she seems needy and prone to giving up at the first sign of trouble- she gave up when the TARDIS wasnt there in ghost monument and needed her companions to convince her to keep going and to be hopeful (even though she had about half a dozen other options she could have tried, see not very bright seeming)- she leapt about like a puppy at the offer to go to Yaz's for tea as she was lonely- her need to call them friends, and the even worse 'fam' even though she barely knows any of them seems needy too.

So far 13 no longer seems to have the main traits of the Doctor- a commanding presence backed up by a massive and impressive intellect. 13 seems slow on the uptake, as someone on Gallfirey Base put it 'I wouldn't expect her to save a ham sandwich right now let alone the planet' and she is lacking in the arrogance and sense of self importance the Doctor usually has.

You can muck about with how much of each of these traits any version the Doctor has- but if you undermine them all at once the character you are left with doesn't feel like the Doctor. }}}

There is something about this new series that makes me chucle rather than roll my eyes and/or rage. (Which is VERY not like the Who thread! How dare I?) I am somehow reminded of Touched by an Angel, from years ago. Does anyone remember?

I guess I'll rather have that nostalgic reminder, than watching a Flash/DC comic series copycat.

I think I also in the RTD notstalgia mode, where I am watching and waiting for that Midnight or Blink episode to suddenly appear.

Yes. I should be working. Get back to work. Now. Now. 123 now. NOW.

.... After I read this new post.

Ok now.

{{Seeing as you compared to previous Amarie lets take a look at 10, 11 and 12 in their first 4 episodes.

10- xmas invasion- 10 sends most of it asleep- but when he does finally wake up its to instantly seize complete control of the situation with a cocky wink to Rose that he is back, arrogantly challenges their leader to a duel, then offers no second chances at the end of it.


New Earth the traditional second story with a trip to an alien world- reintroduced Casssandra to give some sense of continuity between 9 and 10.

Tooth and Claw- after the future into the past- sets up the Torchwood arc, lets the Doctor show off his brilliance and his reliance on brain over brawn- 'we are in a library, books, the best weapons in the universe. Arm yourselves!'

School Reunion- reintroducing Sarah Jane, again tying this Doctor to previous Doctors as the same person.

The Girl In the Fire Place- a melancholy tale to show that even when the Doctor is being brilliant and smart he can still lose. Very important episode in that regard.

11th Doctor .

11th Hour- introduced Amelia and her grown up as companion Amy, sets up 11's main character traits and has him confidently talking down the bad guys and chastising them by episodes end.

Beast Below- the traditional second ep alien world episode only spaceship this time- again more brilliance and arrogance from the Doctor as well as showcasing his capacity for anger at humans for their stupidity- 'Nobody human has anything to say to me today!'

Victrex of the Daleks- connects 11 to his previous incarnations through his need to be the one to recognise the Daleks as Daleks, allowing the prognator to do the same- relies on the Doctor being the same person. Like bringing Cassandra back for 10 it serves a similar function of connecting this Doctor to his previous version.

Time of Angels- return of River Song connecting 11 to 10 and the Weeping Angels. And the Doctor is required because the military were promised - 'the equivalent of an army' hard to imagine anyone thinking of 13 in those terms.

12

Deep Breath- a confused Doctor at the start of a new set of regens questioning their past actions- this episode however connects 12 to the robots of Girl in Fireplace, connecting 12 to 10 as the same person. 12 is distracted most of the episode, ye this almost subconscious brilliance keeps coming through- such as when he noticed the headline in the discarded newspaper or working-out the customers in the restaurant were not breathing- his final showdown with robot guy is full of Doctor arrogance and self control- "Ive got the horrible feeling I am going to have to kill you. I thought you might appreciate a drink first. I know I would."

Into the Dalek- continuing 12's self questioning he gets to test himself against an old foe- the Daleks Again this solidifies the new Doctor as a Doctor by giving a familar foe to confront.

Robots of Sherwood- a humorous romp which underlies the new Doctors personality, he doesn't like banter. He is sceptical as well as arrogant and dismissive, but will admit when he is wrong, and the underlying theme is about heroism and what makes someone a hero and in whose eyes.

Listen- a psychological trip in to 12's mind and his insecurities, which he masks with arrogance and bravado- this episode peeks beneath that veil mentioned by Vastra.

And if we take the vilain as of each of these doctors in turn too-

10

Sicorrax- alien species using a blood tech to control a percentage of the population to use as leverage in forcing earth into surrendering. They threaten the planet throughout, and are confronted by the supporting cast before the Doctor makes his reappearance to save the day in a big showdown. The consequences of the aliens visit on Earth, and in particular in how Harriet Jones sees defending it has long lasting ramifications.

Cassandra- the bitchy trampoline, a character we already know and has a strong individuality and sense of personality and cat nurses from the future who want to cure all disease, but have done so by creating humans to give every disease to in order to work out how to cure them- justifying that the suffering they cause is justified for all the suffering they will eventually heal.

Space werewolf - an unpleasant alien that had crashed on earth and through a cult had managed to survive and grow in strength until the time of Queen Victoria- when the cult plan to infect the Queen with the alien DNA so it will possess her in time and so take over the world by contrlling the British Empire at its height.

School Reunion- an alien race want to use a chemical to increase the intelligence of a school full of kids, as combing the intelligence with a childrens imagination they will believe give them the breakthrough on cracking an equation, one which if solved would give its possessor the power to reshape space and time. Couple of goof scenes between main villain and 10 in this too.

11
11th Hour- prisoner zero has escaped through a crack in time and is hiding out in a house on earth his jailers eventually catch up to him and quarantine the earth, if he hasnt handed over by the deadline they will simply incinerate the planet to get him. Doctor not only stops this but then calls them all back to give them a harsh lecture on threaten to burn planets and send sthem packing with a warning to just run.

Beast Below- starship uk has a secret- it has no engine, instead it has an enslaved starwhale tortured into being the ships engine and pilot and a government sized conspiracy  around it- and the people choose to vote every four years and to forget and have their memory of this wiped rather than let it bother them. Social commentary and a chance for the Doctor to get righteously angry at humans.

Victory of the Daleks- the Daleks need the Doctor to recognise them so their machine will to, as they are not pure bred Daleks in order to restart the Dalek creation process again- the Doctor must choose between stopping the Daleks reforming or saving everyone else.

The Time of Angels- a ship carrying a Weeping Angel being sold illegally on the private collectors market crashes into an abandoned temple, full of weeping angels waiting to be revived by the radiation from the crashed ships engines- the Doctor and co have to crawl in and find away to stop them whilst helped/hindered by the future military division of the Church.


ok whats 13 given us for our enemies-

Tooth-fairy- alien who hunts on earth to kill and take a tooth as trophy from a human to prove their right to rule on their home world. There is a single Doctor villain confrontation at the end but its pretty weak compared to 10, 11 or 12's version of that scene. plot consists of tooth alien arrives, companions coincidentally run into the tow component parts of this arrival- Ryan the pod in the woods, Grahame Nan the tentacle thing on the train- run into the Doctor, chase tooth guy about a bit, build a sonic, go to a crane eventually, he expositions his backstory and is defeated, Nan pointlessly dies, they have a funeral and then all get mistakenly zapped away with the Doctor. Its paper thin.

psychic bandages/killer robot guards- nether are in it much, they present a limited and short-lived threat and are easily defeated. Their point seems to have been to drop some series arc exposition and leave again. There is no other real villain unless you count the guy who runs the race- but the Doctor never confronts him, and when he is confronted by the two racers he instantly backs down even though there is no reason for him to do so. Plot consists of there is race to get to a monument, which is the TARDIS, the planets not very nice they have to get from a to b and overcome the robots and bandages, when they get there its all resolved instantly, the Doctor gives up as the TARDIS isn't there, companions persuade her to keep hoping, TARDIS is there. Everyone is happy now. Again, paper thin.

a racist- racist from the future who was in prison for some unknown crime where he killed a lot of people, served his time, and came back to 1955 Alabama to stop Rosa Parks protesting- no big confrontation scene with him, once has served his purpose of not very good obstacle he is just gotten rid of, zapped out the way and forgotten about without the Doctor even being present. The plot, what there is, is racist wants to stop Rosa, Doctor and co must stop him to make sure history plays out as it should- they do as he isn't much of a threat and it does. The end. Paper thin again.

giant spiders/Donald Trump- spiders that arent really bad, just victims of humans, and a bad guy Trump caricature its impossible to take seriously and who just walks away at the end without any confrontation scene, or interactions with the Doctor, who comes off looking weak in comparison. The plot is a science lab having being using a shady dumping company to get rid of their spider experiments, shady company owned by Trump alike, dumps it in a landfill in a old mine Trump alike then builds his hotels on top of. Toxic waste in confined space plus discarded spiders from lab equals giant spiders. They al run away form spiders for a bit, then lure them with music. Doctor kills them all horribly by locking them all together in a confined space and leaving them there to die after a big speech about the value of life, and big mother spider gets shot by Trump guy, who then just walks out the room. The end. paper thin again. And morally confused.


I think you can see the issue- Jodies Doctor has almost nothing to work with here- the plots are boring, there is no invention in the ideas just generic villains and things in the way to overcome to get to plots end, but no interest, no imagination, no fun to any of it.

Her Doctor has not had anything connecting her to her past selves, so she feel somewhat dislocated from them still when they needed to connect her to her past as much as possible to give that sense of continuity despite the gender change.

10 got Harriet Jones Cassandra and Sarah Jane Smith, 11 got Daleks, Weeping angels and River Song 12 got Daleks again, Vastra, Jenny and Strax and of course Clara.

All to help cement their Doctor in as the Doctor still. Chibnals choice to have no connections to previous NuWho is hurting 13. And replacing those villains with dull, generic villain so as the Doctor never gets to have a good confrontation or intellectual sparring match is also harming her. The basic nature of the plots gives nothing to work out of interest or to show off, the villains give her nothing to work with or any meat to go after and the lack of connection to the past makes her seem adrift.

When you combine it with her Doctor seeming less bright than previous, having less of a commanding presence, lacking the usual arrogance and super confidence it starts to make 13 feel like a different character to the previous 12. }}

{{ Think what each actor 10-12 has got to do in the first 4 eps of their respective runs in terms of performance they were asked to give by the stories.

10- Tennants opens on his big I am the Doctor speech, displays his chatty cheery nature, has a showdown sword-fight with bad guy, saves the day, shows he has a darker side that offers no second chances.

New earth- gets to play the Doctor outraged at what the cat people are doing, sympathetic in the end for Cassandra and giving her time before she died in her past, delighted at saving the new, new humans, and possessed by Cassandra and gets to play the Doctor possessed by an egotistical older woman.

Tooth and Claw- gets to show of the Doctors knowledge, demonstrate how brains are better than weapons against the werewolf and gets to do a lot of Doctory rushing about running down corridors away from a monster.

School Reunion- reunites with Sarah Jane, forced to confront the way he just abandons people when they leave the TARDIS and gets some meaty dialogue scenes with the villain displaying that no second chances darker streak again.



11- begins post regen seeming frivolous then suddenly mid-conversation with Amelia at the table turns serious, showing how this Doctors can turn mood on a sixpence. Demonstrates the Doctors speed of thought and observation skills when encountering Rory and realising he was the only one not photographing the aliens, ends taking total command of being the Doctor confronting the bad guys and sending them packing.

Beast Below- we get a chance to see this Doctor indignant and outraged, saddened and defeated, and again a further display of his observational skills.



Victory- we get a frustrated, angry Doctor here confused at the Daleks plans and eventually defeated but still finally seeing the hope in the situation and offering hope to the Dalek android.

Time of Angels- we get worried scared Doctor, distracted by the situation Doctor, funny Doctor in banter with River and Amy and social commentary and quiet arrogant disdain Doctor regards the Churches soldiers.

12

Deep Breath- confused Doctor, hyper Doctor, calming down and potentially being aggressive Doctor, blunt Doctor that will let his companion think he has abandoned her just to see how she will cope and as part of a greater plan he has in mind. Smart Doctor, working out the previous cases were linked, the androids not breathing in the restaurant ect

Into the Dalek- we get self righteous Doctor being proved wrong, his seeming disregard for a life as unsavable but useful to save everyone else, arrogance at plugging himself into the Dalek and horror at the realisation all it sees is his hatred for daleks, and finally acceptance of that fact.



Robots of Sherwood- lot of comedy one-liners and set ups, a playful Doctor at times without ever losing his grumpiness or impatience with everyone, in fact a lot of the humour is mined from that. Underpinned by his realisation that he isnt a hero because he tries to be but because he just cant walk away from those in need, he does it without thinking.

Listen- a paranoid obsessive Doctor whose spent to much time thinking on his own, delves into the Doctor insecurities- we get comforting Doctor with the young Danny, arrogant Doctor with Clara and obsessed Doctor at the end trying to prove his point.

Now look at 13's first four episodes- she doesn't get anything like that range of Doctor to play, that much substance for the Doctor to bite into, or the situations or enemies that would challenge her.

And none of her companions challenge her, they are like a fan club telling her how great she is- think of Donna's second adventure, Pompey, where she totally calls out the Doctor, or Rory calling out the Doctor on his very first adventure in Vampires, Clara pulling 12 up for his arrogance in his own certainty Daleks can only ever be bad in 12's second episode Into the Dalek. Nothing is giving this Doctor a challenge. Not the plots, not the villains, not her companions.

Where is the emotional depth for her to portray of a 10 meeting Sarah Jane again?



11's fury at humans for putting him in a situation where he either kills the last creature of its kind, killing the millions on board too or renders it a vegetable but saves everyone else. Or 12's horror at realising the Dalek only sees hatred in him.

She has had nothing like those sorts of performances to give, or the variety of them across the first four episodes her predecessors have had in their first four.

She has been in flimsy stories with flimsy plots and flimsy characters and pat resolutions where all the villains just, go away- tooth-fairy guy falls off the crane and teleports away, the two racers and race set up guy just teleport away and the TARDIS just teleports in, space racist gets teleported away, and the spiders just get left to die in a room and the big threat one just gets shot and dies, and the bad guy just walks away.

There is nothing there stretching her performance or giving her anything to do that's different than what she got to do last week, or the week before.
Where is that range and variety we got see in all of her predecessors in their first four episodes? }}}

To be fair female actors are hampered by stereotyping. If a male is 'arrogant' its ok, its commanding and snarky but if a woman displays arrogance its seen by a lot of people as the woman being a snotty cow. or being Cercei Lannister In most tv and films even the most powerful females like Super Woman go goo-goo over babies and don't show typical arrogance. The very few women who have got past this stereotype was Ripley in the Alien franchise. Women are supposed to be soft needy and matey, not typically male. its a weird one.

But awesome when the trend is bucked - like Ripley. They need to stop thinking of her as a woman.

{{That definitely is a part of the problem Halfy- they are writing the Doctor as a woman instead of just writing the Doctor and the character happening to be portrayed by a woman.
I think a part of the problem there was Chibnal decision to get all new writers in who had never written the Doctor before. I feel if he had got a couple of the regular writers from RTD/Moffat era, a Jamie Maitheson or Toby Whitehouse in there to supplement the newbies, people who are used to writing the character of the Doctor, it would have helped.

Figg - they should have figured before deciding to go ahead with it that she would have to be arrogant and self-confidant- the Doctor is, even on the occasions when he is only covering for the fact he's scared, unsure or hasnt got a clue yet whats going on- the Doctor still exudes the image of being in charge, knowing whats going on and taking the initiative. And that needs a certain amount of self-confidence and arrogance that every Doctor has had in some amount, except so far 13. }}

May I nominate Sarah Ferguson who plays Ilsa Faust in the latest "Mission Impossible" films ? SHE can do tough, she can be un swayed, she makes decisions, she is a good match on the same level as Tom Cruise character "Ethan Hunt". She can fight & take the punches. She does have nerves of steel & is very intelligent & outsmarts most of them. You just know she's fallen in love with Hunt but, holds back. She's a strong female co star to Tom Cruise & can easily hold her place. She oozes self control, determination & to be able to work out the problems that face her. So why cant the Dr ? Surely when the scripts are handed out for the next episode Jodie Whittaker must see her character is not much more than a side kick to a comedy sketch from Harry Enfield ? She must like things that way cus if it was my choice Id say something. You can be a woman & still be in command.

Reluctantly I have to say that the early River Song is more my idea of a female Doctor than Jodie. I liked River in her first appearance with Tennant, not her later cringy femme fatale version though.

At least she had emotions, she was cunning too

she could also be commanding without being obnoxious.

I don't think this new Doctor is being written as a "woman" in particular! She's being written as a fidgety over-excited sort of character, but that's not particularly womanly is it?

I really don't think we can confuse the show's lack of interesting Doctor dialogue and actions as the show trying to do a female Doctor: it's just the show failing to do a good Doctor!

{{ I think there is a case for it Forest we have actually seen 10 and 11 invited to tea- previously although he may have wanted to go he takes persuasion as outwards he pretends not to need anyone - with 13 she is obviously hanging on waiting to be asked and jumps at at the first mention.

Instead of assistants or companions she has friends and she is prone to calling them her 'fam' which I assume is short for family- given she hardly knows them, was just gong to drop them of back home and in ep 2 she apparently (in 12 fashion) forget Yas was even there that seems oddly needy.

The way she gave up and needed emotional reassurance in the Ghost Monument seems unfortunate too.

Traditionally the Doctor has always been pretty arrogant, and even when he isn't he puts on a front of self confidence- she doesn't seem confident at all, she is always asking other people what is going on or what to do, she doesn't lead or assume control the same way with the same brash cockiness of the Doctor. And deferring to others makes her seem like she either doesn't know, is not sure enough in her self, or is seeking approval of some sort.

When you combine it all you do get some negative stereotypes normally associated with female characters- indecisive, giving up and needing reassurance, deferring to others, openly needing approval and friendship and being slightly desperate in showing that need- and whilst these are all stereotypes often found in female characters they have not been traits of the Doctor when the Doctor was male. }}

I can't imagine that the show-runners are trying to make the Doctor as you say Petty. It seems like that would work counter to their decision to make the Doctor a woman.

{{you would think so wouldn't you Forest- but so far this is how they have presented her   All the examples of her acting this way are from her episodes.}}

Maybe that's the idea. Then the next Dr will be a man.

While I haven't seen the show, (NuWho it tuns out was never really my thing. (So far, anyway.)) I rather like the actor. I think she was inspired casting, she has just the right sort of whimsicality to suit the role. Shame to hear the writing is not working out.

ok watched the first 3.

Spoiler:

{{Hold on are we agreeing about this?! On the Who thread?! ..... ......I'm not really sure what to do with that! }}

Join the club Figg!

{{Been waiting to hear more on this, but still in the rumour stage but seems to be gaining strength, in that it was originally reported in the Daly Mirror but has spread now to other news outlets reporting it, and the BBC hasn't contradicted it yet several days later- the rumour is that there will be no xmas episode any more.
According to the press reports this is because they have 'run out of ideas' for xmas episodes- how I dont know given they haven't even done 1 yet! 

This is especially galling as 12's run was supposed to end in the appropriately named The Doctor Falls, with Chibnal taking over for the xmas episode. But Chibnal did not want to do the xmas episode, so Moffat wrote an sort of 12 epilogue episode. But he only came back to do that because he felt it was to important not to have the xmas day slot, and if there was no xmas episode last year then the show would lose the prime time xmas day slot and it might not get it back.

For Chibbers and co therefore to just seemingly give it up, and for such a shit reasons- out of ideas for xmas stories- is a bit of a shocking let-down. RTD fought damn hard to persuade the BBC to go for the xmas episode right from series 1 when it was still a big gamble, and Moffat just as hard to keep that slot, now Chibbers might just be giving it up without even trying.

The fact that this is the second xmas episode he seems to have backed out of doing makes me think there is probably something to this particular rumour. But I hope I am wrong about that.


Now the other side to this story is that comic-con Chibbers did say there were 10 episodes and 1 special after the series ended- but it is notable that he never said it was a xmas special- this had led some to think it will be moved to New Years Day, and therefore not need to be xmas themed. Or the rumours are just that, rumours,  and it will be on xmas day as usual. Until the BBC either come out and confirm or deny the rumours we just dont know for sure.But seems a bit suspicious in itself they haven't moved to squash the story given its been circulating in the UK press for several days now and picked up by most of the bigger Who themed youtubbers.}}}

{{Tonight's episode seems to be in the mould of one of the oldest forms of Who story- the base under siege- its a Chibnall episode again but the usual criteria for such an episode are-

-the Doctor turns up somewhere, secret base, underground caverns, underwater base, isolated lighthouse, space station- somewhere confined and cut off
-there is a small group of folk left alive and in danger or in some conflict
-some disaster/monster/threat that will relentlessly pursue and threaten everyone

Under the Lake was the last such one we go, before that Cold War I think.
When it comes to the Doctor they allow the Doctor to take total command and charge of a group, be brilliant working out what's going on, provide opportunities for conflict and friendships,  and a chance to show off the Doctors brilliance by ingeniously saving the day. In short all the things 13 hasn't been doing so far. It should be very interesting therefore to see how this works. }}