Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[halfwise]

Orwell!!

You make a good point about never being enough training and so perhaps a british style SWAT team may be in order. But there's so many guns floating around in the USA that there's only time to pull in such a team in a hostage stand-off.

I wonder, in Australia since the change in gun policy a couple decades ago, was there a big change in policing?

[David H]

(amazing what my golden tongue has been used for; indeed, mine and any cop's safest tool and weapon! lol!)

I couldn't agree more! I've had the privilege from time to time of watching an officer with that gift defuse some really ugly situations. I wish they'd release some of those videos some day!

What concerns me most is how often in these videos where everything goes wrong, the officer appears to have been escalating the conflict. I've met those kinds of officers too, the ones who seem to be looking for a fight. I'm not sure how you fix that except by example like you say Orwell, but even then I don't know....

[David H]

Dave, I'd thank you to hand me the tobacco jar...

No problem Orwell! Do you want the regular or the "special" stuff?

[Pettytyrant101]

Personal experience? - Dave

{{Yup, in my youth. Been stop and searched a few times, taken to the station and strip searched, and in one memorable occurrence whilst in the main street of town on a Saturday afternoon had a cop car screech up sideways blocking the entire main road stopping all the traffic, only for two cops to leap out and rather over zealously slap me against a shop wall and arrest me for suspected possession of drugs, to the entertainment of the days shoppers (this being a small town by the time I got to the station my parents already knew what had happened!).
Needless to say I was not guilty of anything, they had got wrong info from somewhere and they had to let me go- I had in fact just finished my Saturday job and gone straight form it to town- but not until after first strip searching me in a room where they left the door half ajar through to the secretaries in an attempt to embarrass and/or humiliate me (didn't work because I just thought fuck em and whipped everything down and gave them a cheery willy waggle! ), and then conducting what is still, to this day, the stupidest interview/conversation I have ever had in my entire life.
It went something like this-
Cop- So you abuse drugs?
Me- No. I smoke cannabis, I use drugs.
Cop- So you're a drug abuser then?
ME- No, I use drugs. I dont think you can abuse cannabis medically or scientifically.
Cop- NO, your a drug abuser.
Me- Never abused a drug in my life.
Cop- You admitted your a drug abuser.
Me- When?
Cop- Just then. You said you're a drug abuser.
Me- No I didn't. I said I used drugs.
Cop- So you're a drug abuser.
Me- Are we having the same conversation?
cop- Don't be smart admit your a drug abuser.
me- I told you, I'm not, I dont abuse any drugs.
cop- Yes you do, your a drug abuser.

....and so on and on for over half an hour, never changing subject or tact. I could of just shut up and said nothing, but first I knew they knew I was smoking dope back then, so was pointless pretending otherwise (and you cant get done for admission of having done it because there is no evidence its true or not) and secondly longer it went on more morbidly curious I got to see how many different ways I could answer the same charge and how long he would persist at it.
Eventually they just let me go and set me on my way.

But wasn't till I had left and was out on the street again that it sort of hit me and I realised how humiliating and awful the entire experience had actually been, left me shaking. Which presumably was the point, but hopefully at least never let the buggers see it in the station.}}}

[azriel]

When I was young many moons ago my friend & I ran away to see our fav pop band. We hitch hiked to London from the south coast & looking back I very nearly shat meself over it. We got in one car where it was blatantly obvious NOW that the driver was right off his head. Genesis was on full blast & the car stank. We over took everything. I never jumped out of a car so quick in all my life & then, we find out our fav band were away on tour ! off we went again, hitch hiking. Got to Brighton & was picked up by the police for vagrancy 6AM in the morning. no matter we were only 13 yrs old. Taken to the cop shop & left in a cell. Friends dad collected us, put us on train for home. The minute he fell asleep we jumped off the train at 1st stop & we were off again. Ive had a few silly incidents in my life like that

[halfwise]

the best part of that story was "we were only 13 years old"

[David H]

Great stories!

I didn't start traveling until I was 21, but I learned early on the importance of carrying myself with the bearing of a professional traveler, and treating officers as fellow professionals.  Although I've have dozens of encounters with law enforcement officers, I've never been handcuffed or put in a cell, though I've been given several "free rides" out of their jurisdiction.  The back of a cop car with it's steel enclosures and no door handles was a little creepy at first, but I learned to say "Thank you" as I climbed in. De-escalation works both ways I've found!

Edit: I should mention that guns were pretty common then (as now) so pat-downs were pretty common when you were talking with an officer. They could be a bit rough sometimes but I came to take them for granted. Refusing to be searched was one of those things that could cause the holster to become unsnapped. I could have easily argued that these were illegal searches I suppose, but at the time I was less interested in my civil rights and more interested in keeping the gun in the holster.

[David H]

There are plenty of questions about Tasers too.
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-taser-science/

Taser International won over police by touting research it said was as rigorous as FDA-style testing. But its claims about its early studies - which began with a pig, five dogs and some willing cops - were overstated. ...
At sales demonstrations, police officers volunteered – sometimes for a chance at free beer – to be shocked with the weapon. Those shocks were a fraction as long as what a single Taser trigger squeeze delivers in the field.
......
Last month, Reuters reported that over a 15-year period, U.S. coroners and medical examiners have cited Tasers as a cause or contributing factor in more than 150 deaths – the very outcome police seek to avoid when they draw the electric weapon instead of their firearm.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Still better than the near certainty of death shooting someone has }}}

[Orwell]

Tasers are definitely better than firearms, though disappointing for those who desire death by cop. Just saying.

[halfwise]

What are the risks of one of those metal pins piercing the heart?

[halfwise]

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/no-more-agriculture-in-puerto-rico-a-farmer-laments/

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Ok so Trump rhetoric has given N Korea the chance to claim Trump declared war on them (he did say he wanted to wipe them out and their time was limited- so yeah, not conventional, but I can kind of see where N Korea is coming from on this particular one) and so now the potential for something monumentally unfortunate and stupid to happen in a real sense- ie an actual plane being shot down or similar has skyrockted- and what was ostensibly a solely diplomatic problem is bordering on being a war problem.

And Trumps response?- well as far as I can tell to distract by being racist again- which is quite some tactic- when you want to distract divide your own country!
Now I might be just going on stereotypes here and judging unfairly but Trump has been condemning NFL stars and praising NASCAR- now the NFL seems to have a lot of black players, NASCAR does not seem overwhelmed with black drivers. And NASCAR's main fan support seems to come from 'redneck' right wing religious parts of the US where you are probably more likely when randomly throwing a stone in a crowd to hit a racist than usual.
Trump says its not about race, yet it seems very clearly to be about race- the people he is condemning and calling out are using their right of protest to protest the state of race relations in their country, peacefully. Is that not a thing any more in Trump America? Peaceful protest? Are you no longer allowed to criticize the state without fear your Supreme Leader will attack you for it?

As some of you here know I have always had a problem with the US brainwashing of children into allegiance to a flag, pledging allegiance and that 1984esque godforsaken mind-washing chant of 'U.S.A.  U.S.A.'  (it really would as well be 'B.B  B.B.' its the same chilling effect when I hear it anyway). This has bothered me since I was a child at a school with a lot of US students who all had to stand and pledge allegiance to a flag- as a child my only equation to that was dictatorships and communism- it seemed something out of Soviet Russia or Hitlers Germany. It still does for that matter.
And now my worst fears are coming true over it- a President is using that indoctrinating, that allegiance to flag and country, as a stick to beat one part of the country with, and to rally the other part round against them.
How can this be good in any way for anyone or the US?
There is a reason totalitarian states enforce from a young age pledges of allegiance to flag and country, its a really powerful tool for manipulation- a shorthand call to arms, if Trump starts using Americas decades of such brainwashing in this fashion the consequences could be very severe indeed.  }}}

[Eldorion]

The flag and the anthem are just dog whistles. Most conservatives don't care when white people "disrespect" the flag by, for example, flying it upside down to protest Obama's re-election.* But it's not socially acceptable to straight-up say "I hate when black people assert themselves" so they reach for patriotism or respect for the military as an excuse. Never mind that these are a lot of the same people who are in favor of retaining monuments to the leaders of a rebellion that directly killed more than 100,000 US soldiers in battle.**

*Example of milquetoast reaction here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/us/politics/upside-down-flags-mark-conservative-anger-on-obama.html
**More than 300,000 if you include non-battlefield deaths. Total war dead for both sides is somewhere over 600,000.

[halfwise]

The good thing is some very influential all-American square-jawed white football players like Terry Bradshaw are backing up the kneeling players. I think this can well cancel out anything Trump could say.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ I do hope you are right Halfy- I was encouraged when the response from the coaches was to show solidarity with their players, and that players themselves took the decision on themselves if they wanted to protest Trumps words or not- thats as it should be- but Trumps responses to that has not been good, its been jingoistic rhetoric, dangerous nationalistic talk usually used by leaders when they want to whip their support into a frenzy - and its never a frenzy for something good. }}}

[Eldorion]

Two great takes on the protests and broader NFL response to Trump's comment over the past weekend from Shannon Sharpe and Nick Wright.

https://twitter.com/undisputed/status/912327330579677184
https://twitter.com/getnickwright/status/912421985958768640

[halfwise]

Shannon Sharpe's analysis really impressed me.

[Eldorion]

Yeah, Shannon Sharpe is a boss.

Here's another good video I was linked to. This is the same sportscaster who did the epic monologue about teams' reluctance to draft Michael Sam a couple years ago. It's encouraging to see the original purpose of the protests being re-emphasized in the media after so much discussion of "protesting the anthem".

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{{{ }}}

https://www.shortlist.com/news/guns-america-britain-terrorism-twitter/328592

[halfwise]

That's a huge improvement over the shit-fest that happens here any time guns are mentioned.

[malickfan]

[Eldorion]

The flag and the anthem are just dog whistles. Most conservatives don't care when white people "disrespect" the flag

Update:



Commander-in-Chief doesn't know what Retreat is. Not exactly surprising after all the chickenhawk shit he's touted, but given all the effort spent trying to convince people that NFL protesters don't respect the flag it seems relevant.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ Mhari Black of the SNP making an impassioned plea on the opposition bill to halt the roll out of universal credit and on the entire state of mind of the Tory view on benefits - oan yer sel lass!   }}}




{{Government Minister trying to defend the indefensible and failing on the Daily Politics }}}

[azriel]

God I love that Mhairi Black !! what a wonderfully feisty young woman she is !!! She's spot on tho about people's misery ! And what is the Monarchs stand on all of this ? She seems to be complaicent about her Country sliding into the mire. Her first duty as Monarch is to protect the people of this land & what sign does she give ? " Oh I say Phillip, shall we go orrrrrf to Balmoral for the shoot ? Do you think I need one of my 50 Diamond tiara's in case a rich, wealthy & powerful minister/Ambassador from abroad show's up ? " Fuck the lot of them !