Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Forest Shepherd]

I'm not opposed to gun acquisition and use as a pastime or hobby. I know many people who are interested in guns and enjoy using them: I would not wish to mandate that only people who need guns for their livelihood should be able to own them and use them.

I think the question at hand here in the US though is about limiting gun access in softer ways: making it more difficult to buy a gun, restricting the types of weapons that are legal.

I like Dave's suggestion, that this question should be regulated on the state level. I believe this is already the case though, so I'm curious as to what he means. The state in which I live, California, has the strictest gun laws in the country. Here's a dumbed-down reference about the differences between California laws and the Federal laws:
http://abc30.com/comparing-state-of-californias-firearm-laws-to-federal-government-/3092785/

Speaking of which, I don't think it's known by the general populace what gun laws are currently on the books. I'm certainly not aware of them, apart from what I just read.

There's no question that the NRA is incredibly better funded than Gun Control groups. This website says that "The most-recently available total annual spending budgets for gun control groups were $13.7 million collectively (4.7% of the NRA's 2013 budget): including Everytown for Gun Safety ($4.7 million in 2012); the Brady Campaign ($2.7 million in 2012); the Brady Center ($3.1 million in 2010); Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ($308,761 in 2011); Sandy Hook Promise ($2.2 million in 2013); and the Violence Policy Center ($750,311 in 2012)." (https://gun-control.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=006436)

But that's just politics for you I guess.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{If you like guns and enjoy using them here then you can join a gun club and go to a range ect- so long as you can demonstrate a legitimate use -that included hobbyists- and pass the background checks, regularly attend the club you claim to be a member of and store weapons and ammo properly when not in use then you can have your guns.
Its just normal members of the public, like me, who has no legal reason or right to own one- I dont belong to a club, I'm not a hunter or sportsman and I dont need one for work purposes- what possible reason is there for me to own such a thing?

'But that's just politics for you I guess.'

Problem is its not just politics, its dead school children. The NRA has a lot of blood on its hands. }}}

[David H]

I like Dave's suggestion, that this question should be regulated on the state level. I believe this is already the case though, so I'm curious as to what he means.

I've been going up to the state capitol quite a bit recently (working on the erosion issue) and it's been eye-opening and worrying to see first hand how much intimidation the NRA has on both sides of the aisle, even on issues that you wouldn't think had anything directly to do with gun control (education for example).  State legislators will tell you straight up, "If we even use that language the NRA will take us to court, and even if we win we don't have the budget for the court battle." And so some important discussions that should be happening just aren't.  Democracy loses, and so we all lose.

Also there's the "Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act" in Congress now that would basically do an end-run around all state gun laws:

Just last year, the U.S. House passed the dangerous "Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017," which would eviscerate state gun laws and make it easy for people with dangerous histories, no permit and no training to carry hidden, loaded guns in public across the country. The Senate is expected to consider the measure later this year.

http://m.startribune.com/tell-the-senate-to-reject-the-dangerous-concealed-carry-reciprocity-act/473851863/?section=opinion

I just grabbed the first article I saw. It's probably worth searching to get a more balanced view, but wherever you stand on gun rights, if you believe in states' rights this is pure evil.

[Forest Shepherd]

The state of my childhood!

What a nuisance all this is.

[Mrs Figg]

Campbell and Salmond talking common sense on brexshite disaster.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{May is making a bigger and bigger mess of Brexit every day- not even sure who is control of the government Brexit agenda anymore- dont think its her though. }}

[halfwise]

Here Petty: a very cogent explanation of why conservatives in America will not be talked out of their point of view on guns. I'd turn a leery eye towards much of the psychological analysis of liberals and conservatives, but the last few paragraphs pretty will sums things up for at least half of gun owners. The other half will not be so neatly fit into one size fits all analysis.

https://www.vox.com/2015/12/4/9845146/mass-shootings-gun-control

[Pettytyrant101]

{{So basically the only hope for gun reform in the US is to wait until an older generation longing for a past world that will never return have died off? Sounds like Brexit! }}}

[halfwise]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I see Trump is proposing arming teachers now as a solution (An  NRA solution at that- well I suppose they want something for the 30million they paid Trump campaign)- yeah cause when your dealing with fatal gun shootings what you really need is to throw more guns in there- as if the world was not equally horrified and laughing at America already this put you in the same bracket as other nutter regimes around the world sending their kids to schools with armed guards! Insane and pathetic all at once- God help America indeed you have lost reality and the plot, you probably need divine intervention now. Screw raising a family in America, its increasingly a place for nut jobs.}}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Rubio and the NRA women were rightly looking uncomfortable trying to defend their insane decisions on guns- also watched an NRA women on Fox trying to say guns are tools- no they are not, they are lethal weaponry designed with the primary purpose of killing. You might also be able to use a weapon for tool purposes, you can use a spoon as a tool doesn't change the fact its primarily an eating utensil, a guns primary purpose is to kill. That's what a gun is for. Its especially what an assault rifle is for, the Ak-15 has its roots in the Colt-AR 15 which was just a version of the M-16, a gun devised originally for the military with the sole intention of killing people. }}







{{And those are some brave kids- hats off to each and everyone of them}}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{So Trump meets survivors of the shooting to listen to them, but he needs a sheet of notes telling him how to respond like a normal sympathetic human being!



Reminds me of the 12th Doctor and Clara's cards to help him sound more compassionate-



but the Doctor has the excuse he is NOT a human being. Whats Trump excuse? }}

[halfwise]

When I was a teacher I taught in a suburban school where many of the teachers came from the country and were members of the NRA.  When Columbine happened (the first of the school shootings) and the NRA was pushing arming teachers, the teachers all said "don't give me a gun!"  Why?  First of all, teaching high school is a pressure cooker situation.  Part of what keeps you from going off your rocker at times is the certain knowledge that you don't have absolute power and you MUST depend on your human powers of persuasion to defuse a situation.  Every teacher has experienced going over the edge emotionally, and they all know that if a gun was available, the temptation to start waving it could be overwhelming.  Second, if students knew teachers had guns, some would find a way to ruffle through belongings and possess themselves of those guns.  The only way to avoid this would be if teachers kept them strapped on at all times, even when teaching.  What a sight that would be!

So if you want guns in school (and it becomes hard to argue with the logic that only a gun on the scene can stop a bloodbath) then it needs to be security guards who are out of the classroom, out of the pressure cooker.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{if your society has reached the point where you need armed guards in schools just so your children survive the school day alive without being massacred in a gun bloodbath something is seriously fucked with your society}}

[halfwise]

You won't hear me arguing that point.

[Eldorion]

There have been armed guards (usually sworn LEOs rather than private security) in many schools for a while now. There was even one in Stoneman Douglas High School (>source<). Obviously their efficacy can be called into question but it hasn't heralded the collapse of society yet. I agree that arming teachers is a bad idea for a multitude of reasons, though.

Edit: also, while I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this in previous discussions, I'd like to affirm that I agree that we should have more extensive gun control legislation than most states presently do, especially post-District of Columbia v. Heller, though that ruling presents probably the most significant legal hurdle to major reform (to say nothing of the political aspects).

[Eldorion]

Another addendum: the presence of cops in schools (often called "school resource officers") started to take off in the '70s and '80s, well before widespread concern about mass shootings became a thing, although Columbine and subsequent shootings certainly increased the scope of the phenomenon. There are a lot of valid concerns to have about cops being in schools, particularly as it overlaps with the criminalization of petty misbehavior and the racial disparities in how that is applied. You can argue for some degree of a causal relationship between this and the rise of helicopter parenting over the past two decades or so which is probably in part due to anxiety over shootings, but I think many of the causes of over-policing go back much further.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{I thought this was interesting given the US and Trump's total backing for anything Israel does- they seem to be very quiet on this, as in not a word, don't see it popping up on Fox News either (so Trump probably doesn't even know about it!)- }}

'In a rare move, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem has been indefinitely shut in protest against what church leaders say is "discriminatory" Israeli policy aimed at weakening Christian presence in the holy city.
In a statement released on Sunday, church leaders said Israel was violating the status quo at the site, which is one of the holiest in Christianity, at an "unprecedented level"....Referring to a bill recently introduced in Israel's parliament that would allow the Israeli state to take over church properties leased to private companies, they said: "The systematic campaign of abuse against Churches and Christians reaches now its peak as a discriminatory and racist bill that targets solely the properties of the Christian community ..."
The statement, signed by Roman Catholic, Armenian and Greek Orthodox church leaders, also condemned plans by the Israeli government to begin imposing taxes on church properties...."These actions breach existing agreements and international obligations, which guarantee the rights and privileges of the Churches, in what seems as an attempt to weaken the Christian presence in Jerusalem," the press release read.'- Aljazeera news

[Pettytyrant101]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ BBC news showing their bias yet again- this time against Corbyn Agree or disagree with Corbyn there is no justification for the national supposedly impartial broadcaster to do something lie this.

On a recent program they had a Russian backdrop and superimposed Corbyn over it- they selected a picture in which he as wearing a dark flat cap, then altered the colouring and the contrast so that when viewed on the backdrop it looked like a Russian hat.
At a time when our politicians are going hysterical over Russia and accusing RT of being nothing more than propaganda and attacking anyone who appear son it its a bloody cheek. This is clear and blatant propaganda from a state broadcaster and it ain't Russian its ours. }}}

[Mrs Figg]

That is on the cretinous level of Daily Mail "enemies of the people" propaganda. its fucking disgusting.




"well, I'm back."
Sam Gamgee.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ Figg!!!! And yes it is disgusting }}}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{The lies get worse- the BBC claim they did not photoshop it, it was just the way it was broadcast made the hat look darker- but they didn't alter it.
This rather fails to explain why then the hat has changed shape and been made taller and rounder to look less like a flat cap and more like a russian hat. Its clearly been altered! Lying bastards! }}}



((That should be a gif but doesn't work for some reason- but if you click the picture will take you to the pic, click on full resolution and the gif works then- dunno why it doesn't work here}}

[Mrs Figg]

not to mention painting him RED!!   and you know.. Moscow in the background, they must think we are idjits.

anyway its all a massive diversion tactic, to avoid the really important stuff like the government forcing companies to sign really dodgy secret NDAs over the new border after brexit, and the buffoonery of Boris and the Defence secretary, who acts like more like Draco Malfoy by the day. The Russians don't give a toss, bumping off each others citizens has being going on since forever.

[Pettytyrant101]

Moscow in the background- Figg

{{They did use the same background for a Tory MP on the show the week before- thats the BBC excuse- difference is they didn't photoshop the Tory, they didn't recolour him red and they picked a picture of him in a smart suit. With Corbyn they have gone out their way to get him wearing a hat, then altered the shape of the hat to look taller and rounder, then adjusted the contrast to get rid of the details so you cant see the peak of the hat- then coloured him red too.
So as excuses go from the BBC its not much of one! }}}