Tolkien related video's.

Amarië wrote:eArendil sounds right. 4 syllables. GlOr-findel. 3 syllables, stress (?) on the first syllable. Quenya course on PT err DarkPlanet back in the days. Telleri rhymes with celery, I hate that fact and therefore can't forget about it...

But who ran this dark course (sounds like dark horse)

rule in a nutshell for more than two syllable examples:

If the penult is long it attracts the primary stress (stress penult, second syllable from last)

If the penult is short the primary stress moves to the left (stress antepenult, third syllable from last)



And what makes a penult "long" in Quenya and Sindarin? A long vowel in it, a diphthong in it, a short vowel followed by two or more consonants.

Glorfindel and Earendil both have long penultimate syllables: stress penult (second from end)

Legolas, Telleri, Amarie all have short penultimate syllables: stess antepenult (third from end).

In Amarie for example, the penultimate syllable contains the short vowel i, it's not long, not a diphthong, and not followed by two or more consonants (here it's not followed by any consonants of course).

Ahh... it was the days of irc and chatrooms, we followed the Quenya course made by Helge Fauskanger.

Edit: had lessons based on the course, would be more accurate.

halfwise wrote:Wait, explain the rule for 3-syllable Telleri going as TELleri while Glorfindel goes as glorFINdel.

Ah didn't see your post right away, sorry, but same as I explained to the fair Amarie above. Telleri has a short penultimate syllable...

... the vowel in the penult is short e, it's not a long vowel, not a diphthong, and followed by only one consonant, so primary stress moves to the antepenult (third syllable from the left).

Be careful though, for example, -th- is considered one consonant. Primary stress dEnethor...

... þink Deneþor

Oh how good it feels to shake some cobwebs from my brain

...and from my poor books...

By the way, I'm borrowing some terminology, but Appendix E is arguably more easier... sorry, easier morely I mean.

Tolkien explains the stress:

"In words of two syllables it falls in practically all cases on the first syllable.

In longer words it falls on the last syllable but one, where that contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or more) consonants. Where the last syllable but one contains (as often) a short vowel followed by only one (or no) consonant, the stress falls on the syllable before it, the third from the end."

(...)

"Note that Sindarin dh, th, ch are single consonants and represent single letters in the original scripts."

JRRT Appendix E

I dunno why I just didn't start with that, dispensing with the "penult" like terms, though they sounded cool and possibly made me seem smarter... unless I used 'em wrong.

"Let's begin with what we know from the movies."

Lets not....

The rest of it was interesting enough tho.

Hey guys I'm a mod now look at that!

"Something something I didn't know those weren't the hobbit's names something something"
-Halfwise

Well played.

This guy no's his stuff.

Seems to know his onions alright. I always thought it was a shame the Blue Wizards were not mentioned more ? They to me where more of a mystery than any one else.

Yeah because they're barely mentioned, haha.
Oh, unless you mean more of a mystery than other things that are barely mentioned. I guess they're wizards, anyway.

yeah.......... what you just said I haven't read enough Tolkien to know whether the Blue's Brothers are mentioned anywhere but, If you are to have characters can they be mentioned at least once ? I'm itchy to know more about them now

In a sense, they are on a mission from God.

{{Always like his vids- good topic, not one I had considered before.
I would agrue the sirits that inhabit ents are not as high up the chain as the wizards ect if only for Tolkiens comment in letters mentioned in the video- if they were they would know what awaited them and would not, like humans, be left to speculate on an afterlife. }}}

Not sure why this guy even considered that ents may be maiar - we've got young ents, and ent wives suggest procreation.

{{Good points Halfy.

There is also the issue of trolls- which are screwed around with ents I think- in much the same way orcs are screwed about elves and men (and Ive always thought dwarves too given orcs liking for being underground and their skill at mining at making metal implements and devices). I cant imagine that even Morgoth could have taken a wizard say and produced a physically different evil version of them. Rather maiar spirits once in the world seem corruptible only through their inherent strengths or weaknesses of character.
That Morgoth could get trolls from ents the same way he got orcs from men and elves implies to me that the spirits of ents are in the same sort of vein as other sentient species.  }}}

There's a late letter (1972) in which Tolkien notes that Ents and Entwives would find some earthly paradise until the "end of this world" ("... beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see.") at the same time noting that he thinks there would be no reunion for them in history...

... in other words, he doesn't appear to be talking about the survival of Ents (to the end of the world) by way of more Entings.

Galadriel's opinion (which means one of the following choices must be true in my book -- entitled Narn Galadriel incidentally), was that Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else souls that slowly took on the likeness of trees [note to draft letter 247, 1963].

Even trees die obviously, and how long could Entish spirits sustain their bodies? Unless, in the 1972 comment, JRRT means that the Entish spirits live on in Arda. Even the souls of Men don't "die" as in cease to exist, but normally Men's spirits must leave the Earth and its time of course.


As a side note I don't believe trolls were necessarily made from Ents, but as Treebeard says, made in mockery of Ents. That's different in any case. Appendix F specifically notes that the Olog-hai were bred by Sauron but "from what stock was not known". Trolls can be a sticky subject though, but I'll add that there's a quick note in which Tolkien muses that (concerning trolls): "It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types." JRRT Myths Transformed text IX

In MT text VIII, Tolkien appears to think it "unfortunate" that Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Thronodor -- just after stating Thorondor and Huan "could" be Maiar. So far, I think he means that this is problematic if Thorondor were to be classed as a Maia -- but yet in the same text JRRT goes on to say that Orc-formed Maiar would become more and more earthbound when practicising embodied procreation "(cf. Melian)".