Tolkien related video's.

but as Treebeard says, made in mockery of Ents. That's different in any case.- Elthir

{{ But given Morgoth could not create life only twist existing life, and trolls are a mockery of ents it seems sort of logical you'd start with ents. Same as if an orc is too mock elves by twisting them you start with elf.

"It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types." JRRT Myths

I'm not sure what Tolkien means by 'primitive human types'- and sounds very much like a notion of his time. Does he mean evolutionary primitive species of human (neanderthals became trolls!), or primitive in the sense of simpler, less sophisticated? Or some even less savoury meaning? }}}

Good point about the logical choice Petty, but that said, we know from the external history that Melkor's orc-mockeries of Elves began when JRRT believed Melkor could simply make orcs... without needing Elves or already living beings. I believe Treebeard's statement was written within this same thinking.

Of course things changed (as you rightly note), and as you say it seems logical, but then again Tolkien went on to consider a number of ideas with respect to using already living beings to mock the Elves... or in general, to mock Elves and Men, or Eru's children or whatever.

In short(er) I sort of agree, but Tolkien doesn't appear to have started in this mindset (admittedly as it wasn't necessary if Melkor could simply make mockeries out of stone, hatred, slime), and later, doesn't appear to lock himself into the idea that Elves should be used to mock Elves...

... and so, I think, not necessarily (at least), the same with Trolls and Ents.

nice nightcap. Off to bed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-44319958/meet-the-tolkien-fan-who-s-learned-to-speak-elvish-and-dwarvish

Good on her, if it makes her happy then let her be well done her for learning ! I also liked the video after, about the Bodleian showing Tolkien items

....I thought that one could not learn to speak Elvish and Dwarvish. They're not complete languages!

Was it true that Sauron was already defeated and lying prone when Isildur cut the ring from his finger? I'll have to reread that description.

{{Unless its made clearer in another passage Halfy it seems you could read it one of two ways- either Gil-Galad and Elendil overthrow Sauron but die in the act of doing so (my own reading of it) and then Isildur cuts the Ring from Saurons hand afterwards. Or Gil-Galad and Elendil die before Sauron, then Isildur cuts the Ring from Sauron's hand overthrowing him (essentially the movie version).

The relevant bit comes from Council of Elrond, from Elrond's eye-witness account of events-

'I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-Galad died and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'

Tolkien Gateway states Sauron let his guard down, allowing Isildur to cut the ring from his finger; LOTR Wiki says Sauron was mortally wounded so Isildur could cut the ring from his finger; other sites are a bit less clear. I always imagined it somewhat as the movie portrayed it (yet with a more heroic combat from Isildur) but can see with "Sauron was overthrown" coming before "cut the Ring from his hand" a more likely reading of it was Sauron was at least dead in body, or close to it before the ring was taken.

{{Looking at the fuller account given by Elrond of what happened next I think , though still room for some ambiguity, that Isildur took the Ring after Sauron was dead-

'But few marked what Isildur did.He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Cirdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our council.
"This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother, " he said; and therefore whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it.'

Seems to me the Ring was taken post the fight and so was the conversation about it. }}}

Without him taking it during combat it's basically pilfering the dead on the battlefield. One would want cutting the ring off to be a heroic act, like cutting the seed from the white tree in the temple of Numenor. Ah well.

it's basically pilfering the dead on the battlefield.- Isildur

{{That's always how I saw it. Like Smeagol his first act in getting the Ring is not a good or noble one. And he quickly gets moral payback for that later.
But his dialogue is basically triumphantly taking it as a trophy, like a Predator collecting a skull after a kill.
Nothing noble or good about it really- though typical Tolkien he has the language cover for it by making it sound noble- taking it for his fallen father and brother, but the tell comes at the end with the real reason- he took it to treasure it.  }}

{{ I see it playing out as; Sauron is killed, everyone is dazed and grieving, well the three left standing are. And no one, not even Isildur at first even notices the Ring.
But then it calls to him and as if its his own idea he suddenly thinks, 'Ill have that!' and immediately has a really strong desire to possess it. Announces he's taking it for his father and brother, Elrond and Cirdan protest just to leave it alone or throw in the fire and be done with it, but Isildur insists and they don't press him on the matter as it doesn't seem of the hugest importance right now, and get on with the more pressing matters of the aftermath of the battle, counting and tending the fallen et.
And the whole weregild for his father is no more the real reason for it than Smeagols Birthday Present excuse was. }}

{{Got some interesting bits but continuously confuses films and books }}

The duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth was a legendary battle in Tolkien’s legendarium, and this video brings that battle and the fall of High King Fingolfin to life!

The Dagor Dagorath or the Final Battle is an event described in the works of J. R. R. Tolkien, in which the forces of evil will wage a final battle against the forces of good, bringing an end to the world as we know it, so that a new one may be born.

{{Really enjoyed those Chris- very well put together. }}

I enjoyed it also

chris63 wrote:

The duel of Fingolfin and Morgoth was a legendary battle in Tolkien’s legendarium, and this video brings that battle and the fall of High King Fingolfin to life!

Well I'm glad they had some time to do a little square-dancing while they were at it. @3:33