Tolkien related video's.

"What? where does this info about Theoden knowing Elvish come from? Because Gondor used it I suppose."


Yep, and more specifically, from an author's note (note 2, Of Dwarves and Men), where it's said that the Kings and their descendants after Thengel could speak Grey-elven . . . on their grey horses.

And when not on them too!

{{ Only from Thengel? He was what 15th King? I assume it was because he spent time in Gondor in his youth and married whatshername from Lossarnach- Im guessing it was a means to honour her heritage in some fashion.
Course what we don't know is if once she got to Rohan she spoke grey elven whilst wearing a grey dress astride a grey horse, but such things are probably left untouched, at least on Forumshire.... }}

{{{{Where to even begin??? }}}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote: Course what we don't know is if once she got to Rohan she spoke grey elven whilst wearing a grey dress astride a grey horse, . . .

I don't know of any text that contradicts such a likely scenario.

Add a cloudy grey day, and her gallant guard Greyma Oldhair

(who appears in HME XIII, The Grey Areas of Middle-Earth).

{{ This is different. A BBC radio play- a fictional account of Tolkien and Lewis but based on, stuff. Worth a listen. }}

Thanks Chris, didn't know any of that dragon stuff. Also hadn't heard that Glorfindel's return was likely with the wizards.

chris63 wrote:

I enjoyed those, as always

halfwise wrote: Also hadn't heard that Glorfindel's return was likely with the wizards.

There are a couple of subjective choices in this video, and from my perspective, at least two "major" disagreeings.

One subjective choice is to accept that the two (formerly blue) wizards arrove in the Second Age, and thus with Glorfindel. Yet on the back of this hard to read note (the back of the very same piece of paper) Tolkien refers to all five wizards and goes on to say that they arrove in Middle-earth at a crucial time in history (not two separate times) -- which in my opinion agrees with Appendix B that the Istari came to Middle-earth in the Third Age.

Nitpick alert: "And some of Tolkien's early writings . . ." suggested Glorfindel returned with Gandalf?

I think the narrator might mean earlier idea, as the "Glorfindel texts" are very late.


Pronunciation


Though I too have stressed the name glOrfindel, learning it that way in my young youth, according to Appendix E the correct version should be glorfIndel, primary stress on the second syllable.

"The script-writing took several months, after which the completed scripts were sent to France to be read and approved by the author's son, Christopher Tolkien. His help with the project was unstinting and included recording an audiocassette of the acceptable pronunciation of Middle-earth words and names."

Quote from "The Making of BBC Radio's The Lord of the Rings" Brian Sibley

This reading used to be on youtube!

I can't find it now so I can't say Christopher Tolkien said the name Glorfindel particularly (yet why not, if not); but anyway the pronunciation in this adaptation with respect to primary stress is indeed glorfIndel.


Revisions Or What I Would Call Disagreeings

1) This video states that Glorfindel's spirit was allowed to rebuild his body. Christopher Tolkien corrected himself that this mode of reincarnation was not Tolkien's last notion with respect to Elven reincarnation -- correcting himself (his own conclusion noted in Morgoth's Ring) in his commentary to the Glorfindel texts!

2) Christopher Tolkien noted that his father decided not to name Aredhel's companions (as great lords anyway) -- this idea that Glorfindel was one of her companions is, at the moment, easily found on the web, but a fuller reading of the text Maeglin in The War of the Jewels (where the idea hails from in the first place) will reveal Tolkien deciding that this should not be so, and why.

And yes, I can't help myself . . . I mean it's about Glorfindel, who rode a white horse.

I was looking forward to the oaths, dooms and curses clip as I think it's a great topic that Tolkien applies with his usual deftness.  I don't feel the narrator really started to go deep enough until the last 2 minutes, and the topic deserves much deeper examination.

I've recently been bothered by the Stone of Erech - the Faithful left Westernesse in haste, and I can't see them bringing what must have been a 50-100 ton stone with them.  If it was ballast, I can't imagine a worse shape than a sphere.  If valuable enough to carry, why leave essentially in the middle of nowhere?   I tend to feel the story of Isildur bringing it was pure legend, and it was carved into its round shape by a lost race.

This I think has some interesting thoughts on the Stone of Erech:

https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-is-the-black-stone-of-erech/

{{ Good piece.
In Scotland theres a long, long tradition of linking stone to oaths. Putting aside all the stone circles and stuff, as we dont really know what went on there, the capital of the Dalriada back in about 500Ad has a stone with a  place to put your foot carved into it, and is where the King was crowned and pledged their oaths.



In this picture you can also see carved into a second stone behind the 'foot' stone a basin, which still fills with water to this day and was probably part of the ceremony for annointing of some sort.



Then of course you have the Stone of Destiny, a block of stone upon which all the Kings of Scotland were crowned and took their oaths. It was so tied to the mystiscm of Kingship that without it no King or Queen could be legitimate.* It was taken by the English so that Scotland could therefore no longer have a legitimate King by Edward the 1st (Longshanks, Hammer of the Scots) and kept in Westminister Abbey for centuries and used to legitimase and crown English monarchy.
When James the 6th became James the 1st of the new united nation of Scotland and England in 1603 the stone remained there, to continue to legitmise any monarch. It was last used in 1958 at the coronation of the current Queen Elizabeth and is fitted into the throne, so that the monarch is crowned and takes their oaths literally sitting upon it.



* You might wonder how Scotland had later monarchs with no stone, the answer is largely Christianity, which replaced what legitimised you as King from stone to an oil that only monarchs were annointed with and which you could only get directly from the Pope.

I always therefore saw the Erech Stone as being much in this vein.
Technically though its hard to imagine how they got it out of Numenor.
It would have to have been some sort of very light stone it was made from, then you'd not expect it to last out in the open like that.

Heres an example of a stonee ball, about same size as Erech one, found in Bosnia-



It weighs an estimated 30 tons! Thats a lot to move in secret across an entire large island and load onto a boat in a hurry.

I am inclined therefore to favour the notion it was not in fact brought from Numenor at all, but was built there by the Numenoreans at the height of their power and skills and during the early period of colonisation, in order to have a place to get the natives to pledge their oaths and allegiances. And over time history became myth and legend, the assscoiation with Numenor remembred and the erroneous assumption made it was brought there from Numenor. }}

I suppose since all the action took place so soon after the Numenorians arrived, my idea of it being left there by a previous race doesn't hold up, or they would be remembered as being associated with the stone. No need to be at the height of their powers to carve the thing, except perhaps they did it so fast that the locals thought they had brought it.

Longshanks was quite the stinker, wasn't he?

{{ I havent checked dates in Tolkien for the eariest mention of the Erech stone, (wheres Elthir when you need a Lore Master!) so I was going on the idea that it was mos tlikely during Ar-Pharazons reign they carved, or made it where it is. As during that time the Numenoreans were big on colonisation and getting the locals to recognise their rule. Such a stone to pledge oaths at therefore seemed to me to fit that time period best. }}

No, it's kind of in the middle of nowhere: I think if deliberately carving something to make your mark you'd pick a place with more significance. I would see it as a marker of where the flood carried Isildur's ship, and he repurposed it as a covenant stone years later. You could even stretch it and say the globe shape was to mark the remaking of the world at that time - mannish myth though it may be.

{{ I was thinking more it was where it was because at that time it was pretty strong area of native men of Middle Earth, the ancestors of the Dunlendings. its only in the middle of nowhere during the period of Lord of the Rings- in the second age it was a well populated stonghold of these men who of course became the oath-breakers. }}

Maybe.

If the Numenoreans can achieve feats like Orthanc, I imagine they can tote a stone across the sea, secretly even.

I've always been disappointed that we don't get more of the history of Dol Amroth.

{{ I always found the implications that there was elvish blood in their line interesting. As if true its the only elf/human combination Tolkien gives us almost nothing on, which is odd in itself as obviously the notion was close to Tolkiens heart, with the amount of focus and time he spent on Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen. To have a third such coupling go all but only hinted at, it seems odd.
Any lore-masters about to chip in on this topic? }}