Star Wars [2]

Lancebloke wrote:

halfwise wrote:Just because he's supposed to be whiny and annoying doesn't make him interesting.  Darth was great because he played all the tunes of evil power perfectly; something which was often done laughably in Flash Gordon movies, for example, but Lukas managed to finally perfect it.

Darth is not interesting in the first film. He is a typical sub-bossman. Good boy gone bad. He doesn't have any depth of character until later in the trilogy.

I think Kylo has a lot more personality than Vader did with the same screen time. Have to wait and see if that develops further.

No, no, no...I was NEVER referring to the prequel trilogy.  When discussing with anyone of my generation, "Star Wars" is ONLY the original trilogy.  The prequels are some sad joke that only become part of the conversation if explicitly mentioned (and then with a shudder of revulsion). You'll note in the post that preceded the one you quoted I wrote

Nothing compares to the archetypical evil majesty of Darth Vader. (only with the mask on - all other incarnations are best forgotten).

I was also not referring to the prequels... by first I meant in our timeline!

In every action film there is the main baddie and his tough enforcer. Vader was a typical enforcer but just in a space suit. The only time we really learnt any depth was when Obi-Wan faced him ("Now I am the master" etc).

Two points:

1. Though the steely-eyed enforcer type is seen in many movies, they usually don't get any good lines ("I find your lack of faith disturbing", etc), and only Vader is a main character who hits every note of dark suit, menacing voice, strange powers, inhuman cruelty, etc with such perfect believability. Those who come close (Hannibal Lector is probably the best) all came after Vader. He was the first movie villain to truly bring it all together.

2. "Now I am the master" of course came during the first movie, and it was about 2/3 of the way through. I call it perfect timing: after carefully developing this incarnation of pure evil, we find he was trained by the equally carefully developed incarnation of pure good. If the reveal had come earlier, it would not have been nearly as interesting.

So people may claim Kylo Ren is more interesting than Vader, but I call his character poorly done - a rush job. We see his flaws before his facade is developed in our minds; to me that ruined the sense of evil power and all I'm left with is a whiny brat in poor control. And Rey beats him immediately with no training: it took Luke 3 movies with the best instructors in the galaxy.

Nah, I'll take Vader any day.

I am pretty sure you would find plenty of tough enforcer guys before Vader. The may be a difference in that Sci Fi wasn't really mainstream in movies until the late 70s but I wouldn't credit George Lukas with that.

Second point... again fairly generic. Plenty of good guys turned bad stories in history. Not sure it could have been timed much differently to make the story flow well.. so will give you that at least (see, I'm not all argument )

On the last bit... I think that was the point. Kylo is young and immature dreaming of being something he is not ready for and, it seems, he doesn't really want. Would be like Anakin having taken on the dark side at the start of episode 3 when he was conflicted over everything. His transformation want complete until the Windu/Palpatine scene and the next few actions through to Padme dying sealed the deal. Kylo is nowhere near that and so makes sense to me that he is like a hormonal teenager rebelling against his heritage but at the same time trying to live up to and exceed it.

As I said, at this point in their life cycles (end episode 4 vs end episode 7) I think Kylo is far more interesting. May not last but on that comparison...

On your last point, Luke took 3 movies to defeat a former Jedi Knight who was trained when the Jedi were a fully functioning order versus Luke had only a couple of stopovers with a nearly dead Yoda.

We don't know about Kylo other than he still has training to complete. Rey... I am not sure if there isn't more to her than we have seen. She was pretty solid with her weapon already so finally tapping in to the force could only improve that. Not sure if she tapped in to the light or the dark though...

I guess to me Vader is book-Aragorn versus Kylo-s movie-Aragorn.

Fair enough.

I think Vader vs Kylo is an interesting comparison simply because Kylo is a Vader wannabe. A not very good one either!

I do think the intention behind the character is to have this immature person with a lot he feels he has to live up to but just isn't in that league and lacks the fortitude to do anything about it... and secretly knows that despite the facade.

I think they could really do a lot with both him and Rey to make it very interesting.

mebbe. But my 12-year-old self misses that pure incarnation of capable evil.

Think we might be getting some of that in Episode 8.

And the reviews begin:

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/film-review-rogue-one-star-wars-story-170045524.html

Pretty close to a rave review, I'd call it.

Going to see it on Thursday

so is this rogue star wars connected to the first one, they look like different actors. is Rey and Finn in it?

No, sorry! It's a film set before the originals, as I understand it. I think this film details the events by which the rebels managed to capture the plans for the Death Star. Something like that. I'm not an expert.

Yep, that's it.  Supposedly Rogue One is the first of the sort of extended universe movies which are not considered cannon.  Which makes no real sense except that they are supposed to be building off the existing framework rather than pushing it forward, which makes it even more cannon than the others, but whatever.  (isn't there an emoticon for that?)

Cannon?

That guy needs to be nonchalantly smoking a cigarette.

The spin-off movies are canon, they're just not part of the main series. Disney actually did away with the whole multi-tiered SW canon that had developed over the decades and is trying to keep everything (films, TV shows, novels, comics, video games) entirely consistent with each other. There's a team of people within Lucasfilm whose job is to ensure that this continuity is preserved and the guy who maintains the internal database of all the characters, locations, events, etc. has the job title "Keeper of the Holocron".

The sequel to The Force Awakens (which is still just being called Episode VIII at this point, but will get a proper subtitle eventually) is going to be released next December.

Forest Shepherd wrote:Cannon?

That's not a cannon.



That's a cannon.

Ringdrotten wrote:Going to see it on Thursday

You'll have to let us know what you think of it. I'm not sure if I'll make it to the theatre for the Thursday evening "preview" screenings, but if not I plan on seeing it sometime in the opening weekend. Unlike TFA, no one else in my family has expressed interest in seeing this one, though last year I went to the preview screening on my own and then back with the family to a regular showing a couple days later.

Think I will see it on Sunday if I can. Don't want to have any of it ruined by spoilery people!

Ooo I say, Forest has found a big one

To be fair Eldo found that particular bombard. The largest cannon I've ever actually seen was Mons Meg in Edinburgh when I visited.



It's 13' 4" so I think Eldo's might still be bigger.

Rogue One.. My gawd, it's awesome.

You saw it already! Short review, but very hopeful...

I hadn't read anything about it and only seen one trailer, so I had few to no expectations. Some scenes were better than others of course, but overall the film was a blast, and lots of references to Episode IV (both obvious ones and a few less so). What really did it for me, though, was the ending - that was really Star Wars - you'll just have to see it for yourself, don't want to spoil it. And this one is definitely worth the movie ticket, halfy

Oh I'm going tomorrow. Paying for this ticket was never in doubt.