Star Wars [2]

malickfan wrote:

Eldorion wrote:

malickfan wrote:Watching a few clips of the prequels on youtube, I'm struck by the notion that they had a more complex story, and expanded the franchise with new vistas, planets and more thematic material than ever before...yet they were so badly made as films, and crucially pretty boring...I'll take a rehashed story and Disney playing it safe any day...(not that I don't want 8 to forge its own path)

Oh yeah, I think the prequels definitely had a more complex story.  It shows a lot more of the worldbuilding too in terms of politics and the broader Galaxy.  In the originals, a lot of that stuff was merely hinted at, and then elaborated on in the novelizations and radio plays.  But a lot of that stuff in the prequels was really inept so I can't blame people for not liking it, even though I don't think it was the biggest problem with that trilogy.

When I think of the prequels, this is one of the first clips that comes to mind.



I wonder if that was one of the reasons the prequels weren't as popular?, obviously they are pretty ineptly written, but as I understand the Star Wars Expanded Universe hadn't really expanded     at that point (or at least not to the extent it would do in the 2000's) so Star Wars was primarily known as quite a straight forward action adventure romp between Good and Evil, the prequels added alot of depth and scope to the universe (pretty ineptly though) which audiences frankly didn't care to see at that point in time, weirdly enough though that seems to be one of the complaints about TFA-that there isn't much politics or supposed depth, it's a return to the straight forward OT style so maybe the prequels have had more of an impact than you'd imagine...by and large I don't think kids and teenagers (the target audience for Star Wars) make much distinction between the two trilogies (I didn't at the time...)

The prequels, IMO, got far too complex for their own good. It always gave me a weak smile, when watching scenes from the OT that hint at a greater world beyond the characters POV, when entire stories were hinted at with a couple of words or phrases. Watching the prequels definitely did not make me want to explore this greater, more in depth world. The story by no means, was bad or unrealistic for anything in the Star Wars universe, but it was not any material to be put on film. So many seemingly pointless debates, with Yoda at the end foreseeing something we all know happens in the OT. So many scenes that served as stupid exposition, or to reference another adventure that seems more interesting than the movie we're watching right now.

It was much better back in the days when the force was nothing but a mysterious field of energy, that everyone could use if they tried. Not something that got passed in a guy's sperm cells. There needed to be far less characters to care about, and if there were politics, I wish the choices characters made helped, you know, characterize them in the slightest (aside from Palpatine and Anakin in ROTS).

A good storyteller can make something as complex as you can, but also make it a character driven story at the same time. And by stripping it of it's ambiguity, 3 dimensional characters, easy to get through storyline, and not even care about the actors performances, it just becomes a pile of shit. Irvin Kershner, I think understood this the best out of all the people who worked on star wars directly, which is why, for example, he got rid of a scene in ESB where a Wampa attacks Han. It added nothing to the story and was just filler.

However, as un-Star Warsy the prequel's plots were for me, I'm still upset over how much potential the plots DID have. The politics could have been fairly interesting if they were fairly executed well. But what translated on film, at least when directed by George Lucas, was that nothing was really happening at all, and that no ones lives were at stake. Maybe Steven Spielberg, Robert Zemeckis, and Ron Howard, would have conveyed otherwise if they directed the movies, like they were asked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgICnbC2-_Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAbug3AhYmw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wKqH6vlGHU

If you're confused by what I mean when I say this, these videos represent how these specific plots had potential to be at least interesting star wars films.

also, my main problems with Return of the Jedi, that they basically sit around and do nothing, with little to no character development, can easily be summed up with this article:

http://www.lasertimepodcast.com/2015/11/11/the-return-of-the-jedi-we-should-have-seen/

Bluebottle wrote:You know, seeing all this excitement from the outside is kind of amusing, because.. hey, it might actually be good.. and fun.. but.. come on.. it's Star Wars.. made by Disney!?

That's not something that sounds designed to get me overly excited about anything, on the whole.

I do wonder how people will feel about it in a couple of years, when that first spate of excitement has died away. All that differently than about the prequels? That everyone was up in arms about the last time (although they've conveniently decided they all hated that now)?

I wonder a bit, at least.

Hey, it might actually be great, although I'm hesitant to believe that. Popularity seems to blind people, as does a Star Wars badge. If it's good I'll be pleasantly surprised. Hell, if it's decent I'll be pleasantly surprised, considering the standard of movies over the past couple of years. (And that's counting some of Abrahams.)

Here to help.

Smells like hipsters in here!

Forest Shepherd wrote:Smells like hipsters in here!

You know, I think I've seen some comments like that before..

Might it have been when the Hobbit premiered? Or when Game of Thrones season 5 happened?

azriel wrote:Why did Star Wars episodes 4, 5, and 6 come before 1, 2, and 3?

Because in charge of scheduling, Yoda was.

Okay, so I saw it.  First the spoiler free comments:

Kylo Ren simply doesn't move with the intimidating weight of Vader. Frigging hunch shouldered lightweight.  I think David Prowse has been shortchanged on credit for his acting skills.

Daisy Ridley got them eyes.  Gives me naughty thoughts.  And it's nice to see another female character kicking butt.  Been a long time since Aliens. I suppose Hunger Games was supposed to cover this ground but not so badass.

Overall, it was OK, hit the right notes.  But didn't give me the sense of wonder that the other movies did, and I even include the prequels in that.

And yes, if you haven't seen the movie, don't read the spoilers yet.

Spoiler:

I also have to reaffirm Disney's thanks: that so many people could see the movie and avoid broadcasting the #1 spoiler is somewhat mind boggling. I think it says something about how much people care for the original characters.

So you see BB-8 on the red carpet with no special effects, and you have to wonder how the fook it works?  Is the dome being suspended by magnets or what?

Best guess I've seen so far:

http://hackaday.com/2015/04/19/bb-8-is-real-but-how-did-they-do-it/

Dunno if it was ever confirmed that BB-8 is a Sphero as that article speculates, but Sphero was contracted to make the official miniature BB-8 toy that, size aside, can move almost exactly like the prop from the film.

Bluebottle wrote:You know, seeing all this excitement from the outside is kind of amusing, because.. hey, it might actually be good.. and fun.. but.. come on.. it's Star Wars.. made by Disney!?

That's not something that sounds designed to get me overly excited about anything, on the whole.

I do wonder how people will feel about it in a couple of years, when that first spate of excitement has died away. All that differently than about the prequels? That everyone was up in arms about the last time (although they've conveniently decided they all hated that now)?

I wonder a bit, at least.

Hey, it might actually be great, although I'm hesitant to believe that. Popularity seems to blind people, as does a Star Wars badge. If it's good I'll be pleasantly surprised. Hell, if it's decent I'll be pleasantly surprised, considering the standard of movies over the past couple of years. (And that's counting some of Abrahams.)

Here to help.

I sometimes wonder where this myth that prequel hate is some recent development comes from.  Maybe it's in response to the myth that the prequels are universally loathed nowadays?  There have always been hardcore Star Wars fans who love the prequels as much as the originals, and there still are today.  The faction that swears by the OT and despises the prequels has only ever been that -- a faction.  There certainly was a level of denialism around TPM when it first came out but that faded pretty quickly; definitely before AOTC came out, as the box office can attest.  An even greater percentage of people who saw the prequels as kids (both as they were coming out and since then) like the PT and see it as an integral part of the Star Wars saga.

I think it's fair to say that once the hype period is over there will be some people who sour on TFA.  We see it with nearly every major movie, especially franchise ones where people are pre-disposed to want to like a new installment.  On the other hand, fandom is more cynical now, in large part because of TPM, so the near-universal praise for TFA among fans might mean a little more than usual.  Among casual movie-goers, none of the history of the franchise is really relevant, but the level of nit-picking in general is going to be way lower there too.

At the end of the day, TFA does not have a strikingly original or elaborately crafted story, but that's never been what Star Wars is about. I think the filmmakers are right to assume that anyone who goes to see the seventh major installment of a movie franchise is fond of the kind of movies that franchise has always been about. If you're not into that kind of movie, there are plenty of others out there. But if you are into it, then TFA offers a really great experience.

halfwise wrote:I also have to reaffirm Disney's thanks: that so many people could see the movie and avoid broadcasting the #1 spoiler is somewhat mind boggling.  I think it says something about how much people care for the original characters.

I'm glad you were able to go in unspoiled. My step-brother unfortunately got something major told to him a few days before he saw it, though he still enjoyed the film when we saw it today.

halfwise wrote:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

TFA is very careful not to crap over the cool ideas that people loved about Star Wars, and avoids those that were not embraced. Perhaps the only mistake that has been pointed out is

Spoiler:

Eldorion wrote:I sometimes wonder where this myth that prequel hate is some recent development comes from.  Maybe it's in response to the myth that the prequels are universally loathed nowadays?  There have always been hardcore Star Wars fans who love the prequels as much as the originals, and there still are today.  The faction that swears by the OT and despises the prequels has only ever been that -- a faction.  There certainly was a level of denialism around TPM when it first came out but that faded pretty quickly; definitely before AOTC came out, as the box office can attest.  An even greater percentage of people who saw the prequels as kids (both as they were coming out and since then) like the PT and see it as an integral part of the Star Wars saga.

Oh, I didn't say recent development. I just remember the overall positive reaction from people when it came out, who are now rather embarrassed by it. Among those you've got prominent reviewers who's stated as much while reviewing this movie.

Eldorion wrote:I think it's fair to say that once the hype period is over there will be some people who sour on TFA.  We see it with nearly every major movie, especially franchise ones where people are pre-disposed to want to like a new installment.  On the other hand, fandom is more cynical now, in large part because of TPM, so the near-universal praise for TFA among fans might mean a little more than usual.  Among casual movie-goers, none of the history of the franchise is really relevant, but the level of nit-picking in general is going to be way lower there too.

Yeah, that's sort of what I'm wondering. (All the while not having seen it. (Hey, as I said. I might very well think it's just as great as you guys. I just have a natural skepticism of anything this popular.)) Because Disney doing Star Wars doesn't seem to be a combination that would normally wow me. (Disney doing Star Wars sounds like a joke really.)

Eldorion wrote:At the end of the day, TFA does not have a strikingly original or elaborately crafted story, but that's never been what Star Wars is about.  I think the filmmakers are right to assume that anyone who goes to see the seventh major installment of a movie franchise is fond of the kind of movies that franchise has always been about.  If you're not into that kind of movie, there are plenty of others out there.  But if you are into it, then TFA offers a really great experience.

That does worry me. And it sounds like the sort of thing people will strike on when all the novelty and primary enthusiasm fades away.

I am definitely open to it being good at what it is though. (It's just.. could you hope for more?)

Ok, I'll stop being a downer now.

I'm not going to try to over analyze it. The movie did what it needed to do, and it wasn't always successful, but it was fun and it felt like Star Wars.

For my second viewing I tried to focus more on the music to see if there was something obvious that I had missed. I was able to latch onto one new theme and recognize it throughout the movie. Kylo Ren's theme was a descending line in the brass, but that's all I can remember about it; I wouldn't have been able to walk out of the theater whistling it. I don't remember it being particularly hummable.

Bluebottle wrote:Oh, I didn't say recent development. I just remember the overall positive reaction from people when it came out, who are now rather embarrassed by it. Among those you've got prominent reviewers who's stated as much while reviewing this movie.

Fair point regarding reviewers; I think a lot of them have definitely changed their tune. Due to my age I wasn't participating in discussions for the releases of TPM and AOTC but I did enough trawling through forum archives when I was younger to know that the anti-prequel faction was around back then too. They may well have been smaller back then, though I think even today they are more vocal than they are big.

Yeah, that's sort of what I'm wondering. (All the while not having seen it. (Hey, as I said. I might very well think it's just as great as you guys. I just have a natural skepticism of anything this popular.)) Because Disney doing Star Wars doesn't seem to be a combination that would normally wow me. (Disney doing Star Wars sounds like a joke really.)

Hmm, yeah, I kinda agree with the hipster diagnosis. Disney has done a great job as a corporate caretaker for Pixar and Marvel without trampling on them artistically so that was never my worry about the sequel trilogy. They've given a pretty good deal of autonomy to their recently acquired subsidiaries as far as I can tell. Heck, with Pixar, they put John Lasseter in charge of their own in-house animation studios too.

That does worry me. And it sounds like the sort of thing people will strike on when all the novelty and primary enthusiasm fades away.

I am definitely open to it being good at what it is though. (It's just.. could you hope for more?)

The original Star Wars doesn't have a strikingly original or elaborately crafted story either. I don't see why one would expect the sixth sequel to that film to go in a significantly different direction.

bungobaggins wrote:For my second viewing I tried to focus more on the music to see if there was something obvious that I had missed. I was able to latch onto one new theme and recognize it throughout the movie. Kylo Ren's theme was a descending line in the brass, but that's all I can remember about it; I wouldn't have been able to walk out of the theater whistling it. I don't remember it being particularly hummable.

I wasn't listening to the soundtrack super closely but I had listened to a few of the tracks in between my viewings, so I did recognize Rey's theme a couple times and I'm quite fond of it. But all in all, none of the new themes really jumped out at me while watching the film itself.

Rey's theme is really nice, but I didn't recognize it apart from her introduction scene. These things are easier to do at home with the pause and rewind buttons on the remote control. I haven't listened to the entire soundtrack yet, but plan to at some time. Don't know if I'll be going a third time (a third viewing seems a bit excessive IMO), but if I do I'll try to focus more on the music.

When was this in the movie?

I can't place it right now, but I'll try to listen for it during the scenes when

Spoiler:

Those would be the logical places for it. I listened to this track between viewings, thought it had potential to be this trilogies "Trade Federation March" or "Imperial March." Couldn't place it anywhere on my second viewing, which is unfortunate. It's a good march and it should stand out more. I wonder if JJ understood that music is essentially a primary character in Star Wars films. I'm starting to think JW doesn't deserve all the blame here.

Both Rey's theme and March of the Resistance seem more like atmospheric pieces rather than hummable melodies. I think it may just be the phase John Williams is in...after all it's been nearly 40 years.

Evolution of the composer's style was something I hadn't considered. The Star Wars fan in me overtook the learned musician.

A take-down of Hollywood's current nostalgia craze, using TFA as the prime example:

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/21/10445616/star-wars-hollywood-nostalgia-problem