Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{In is big speech Trump didn't say he was going to fix things- he said he was going to end and eliminate things- like racism, war, poverty ect Now I know politicians tend to promise too much, but I think Trumpo mightbe under the impression he is Jesusu Mark II.
Talking of impressions, I am decidedly getting one that Trump is not the real deal, by which I mean he is not really goin gto be in control of the power if he wins, his kids are. I am getting the growing rhe is just their front man to get them to the power.

But thank God at least Trump didn't do anything really weird like pat his daughter on the arse, oh wait he did do that? Well at least he has never said anything dodgy about her that might make that action seem even odder, oh wait he said “Yeah, she’s really something, and what a beauty, that one. If I weren’t happily married and, ya know, her father . . . ” and "she does have a very nice figure. I’ve said if Ivanka weren’t my daughter, perhaps I’d be dating her.”  and if thats not disturbing enough, "My daughter, Ivanka. She’s 6 feet tall, she’s got the best body."

But I suppose it could be worse, if you really try, oh he did really try



Hail to the Chief indeed! }}}

[malickfan]

If I was American, I'd be very tempted to not bother voting, or go for a 3rd party...

[halfwise]

At this point voting for a third party accomplishes pretty much nothing...that only had an effect when the parties were still trying to solidify their positions. Nah, it's time to choose sides. Not choosing sides right now is to abandon responsibility.

[Mrs Figg]

{{In is big speech Trump didn't say he was going to fix things- he said he was going to end and eliminate things- like racism, war, poverty ect Now I know politicians tend to promise too much, but I think Trumpo mightbe under the impression he is Jesus Mark II.
  }}}

erm I think he is more like The One Who Lives In The Hot Place II

[Orwell]

Hail to the Chief indeed!   }}}

Creepy. Always thought so. Now, confirmation.

[odo banks]

Almost as pretty as my niece, Mirabella. Beautiful girl. Turn any old Tory's head. Mmmm-mmmm.....

[Mirabella]

Oh how lovely for you to say it, Uncle, my favourist touchy-feely uncle. You know, you would make an excellent President. You are very Trump-like in so many ways.

[azriel]

My view on slease bag Trump ? Would you let him in your house, leave him in the front room alone while you make tea & date your daughter ?..............
So why vote for him.......
Enough said.

[Orwell]

Would you leave him alone in your house with his own daughter?

[azriel]

[Orwell]

Does the recent rise of both Right Wing and Left Wing Radicals in normally stable Western Democracies disturb anyone? I don't fear an Islamist takeover of the West. I do fear the Right Wing though, the Left seeming rather weaker at the moment, but will grow the more the Rght Wing continues to gather momentum and grows in strength. Does anyone remember the rise of Hitler and Stalin?

[Orwell]

Mind you, the Left Wing in America only seem to be asking for what the citizenry of every other Western country has already got. Could get nastier though if the Right continues to grow.

[Lancebloke]

I think the problem is the left wing have gone too left... the P.C brigade have had such an easy ride (especially in Europe) that there was always going to be a backlash from the right.

[David H]

Does anyone remember the rise of Hitler and Stalin?

A bit before my time I see.

[halfwise]

Up until the time of Bernie Sanders America had appeared to have lost the far left wing. He proved it's still there, but largely holding its tongue.

I consider myself a pragmatist, but some things considered leftist like universal health care I see as pragmatic.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{I am very much of a similar mind Halfy- that is why i ended up supporting the SNP- because their only real ideology is independence its members ended up being drawn from across the political sp[spectrum, and outside of independence they have a history so far in government of going with what works, regardless of which side of political sit comes form- so they favour left socialist stuff like the NHS, and public services, but they favour paying for it through capitalist economics (which is why when they were a minority administration they got budgets passed with Tory voted backing them over the line) , they are also more traditionally right of centre on law and order.
If it seems like the best idea and the best solution I dont like it when the only thing preventing its trial is ideology. }}

[Eldorion]

I think the problem is the left wing have gone too left... the P.C brigade have had such an easy ride (especially in Europe) that there was always going to be a backlash from the right.

That seems like a very narrow definition of left wing to me. Traditionally leftist economic policies (the stuff that defined the left for generations) like nationalization have all but vanished from mainstream politics, because the Overton window shifted so far to the right during the Reagan/Thatcher years and has only slightly moved back since then. So-called identity politics has moved more or less consistently in a progressive/more tolerant direction for the past several decades and that is often associated with the political left, but that's only one part of leftist politics even if we limit the discussion to social issues.

I don't know exactly what you have in mind when you say "the P.C. brigade" and I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm uncomfortable with the phrase in general because I often see it used dismissively towards people working against discrimination (though it's meaning can vary from person to person, certainly). I for one am glad that our cultural norms have shifted to become more accepting of diversity (ethnic, sexual, etc.) and less accepting of discrimination on those grounds. There's still work to be done though. I think it's bullshit that my mother and step-mother still can't travel to certain places even in our own state because sometimes when they shown up their hotel they're refused service because some clerk has a problem with gay people. I'm angry that I have to worry about the physical safety of my trans sister in certain contexts, including public bathrooms. I know from my own past experience of being a prepubescent boy with long hair that complete strangers will follow gender-nonconforming people into bathrooms and try to see their genitalia, or attempt to physically prevent them from entering, or worse. And of course there are plenty of barriers to trans people (and gay and bi people) that have nothing to do with bathrooms, such as finding housing. I am glad that we have the "the P.C. brigade" bringing attention to these issues and discouraging people from being bigots. Like many people, I sometimes find the stories from college campuses to be a bit much, and I don't advocate the harassment of people who express anti-LGBT or other socially regressive views, but I want to see my society continue to become more accepting of people like my family and I utterly reject the idea that they have had an "easy ride".

I don't really see this as left-wing issue though. My step-mom is fairly conservative in some regards (probably related to her being a cop) and would almost certainly vote Republican more often if national Republicans didn't pander to the anti-gay crowd so much. She's hardly alone in being conservative and gay, but when there is a consistent message from one party that they object to the existence of people like you, those people are  less likely to vote for that party, even when they agree with many of their other ideas. But there's more to the political right than religious conservatives and right-of-center parties don't have to be beholden to them. For example, I think David Cameron made a very strong case for why same-sex marriage is in line with conservative social thinking.

[Eldorion]

Up until the time of Bernie Sanders America had appeared to have lost the far left wing.  He proved it's still there, but largely holding its tongue.

I consider myself a pragmatist, but some things considered leftist like universal health care I see as pragmatic.

The fact that Bernie Sanders is considered far left is a perfect piece of evidence of how far right the political spectrum has drifted since the 1970s.

[Orwell]

Mind you, the Left Wing in America only seem to be asking for what the citizenry of every other Western country has already got. Could get nastier though if the Right continues to grow.

One of the Forumshire Elders agrees with you on that, Eldo.

[David H]

Up until the time of Bernie Sanders America had appeared to have lost the far left wing.  He proved it's still there, but largely holding its tongue.

I think the Occupy movement showed that even better. There's a good case to be made that a lot of Sanders activism is a new incarnation of Occupy, not so much following Bernie as pushing him forward.

[Lancebloke]

Eldo - equality is something that the left have advocated for a long time and the right generally seem to have been brought in line with even if a lot of them don't agree with. From what I have seen, that is quite prevalent in the U.S. when it comes to religious belief in that there are plenty of stories of state representatives saying they agree with the law but then kicking people out of town meetings because they refuse to say a prayer before the session starts or the whole toilet thing that you mentioned above.

Maybe left wing is the wrong term... but the far left is often associated with ultra liberal views and that is what I mean.

That side of things seems to have had more air time than even the loud far right over the last 20 years. While the middle of the road liberal is all for equality and all the things you mention above (and I completely agree with), the loudest ones are those that have been pushing the boundaries that seem to make innocent people end up like victims.

The general feeling here about the justice system, for example, is that convicted criminals often seem to have more rights that their victims (I will caveat that by saying 'here' means people I speak to about it who come from all over the country).

Immigration and the welfare system is another. The loud liberals almost guilt trip everyone else in to doing things whether they are right or wrong.

Religion and race are almost untouchable even where the facts point to obvious issues in some cultures.

That is what I meant that the right is reacting to. The EU referendum wasn't about the economics of it all... it was about a reaction to what people see as giving too mich away and wanting control back. To be able to make our own decisions on what we think is right.

The rhetoric that comes out of Trump's mouth is the same. The right wing movements in europe are dominated by the same issues.

Am I making sense there?

Please don't think by P.C brigade that I am not an advocate for equality. What I mean is things are seen as going beyond that to where the minority seem to be treated better than the majority... not equally.

[halfwise]

We haven't really had loud far left liberals here since the 80's; Bernie brought some of that back. We did have a PC movement which has lost some force recently largely because of success. There's definitely been complaints about it going too far, but the overall adjustment has been a good one, I agree with Eldo about that.

The argument about criminals being treated better than victims is an interesting one. Is the goal punishment or social correction? There are some criminals who need to be given a chance, and some education so that once they get out they can make a go at it and not come back to prison is a benefit to society. But prison should not be an enjoyable experience - I disagree with putting television in prison. Good reading material is what's needed, and some computer training with limited access to the internet. Without some computer skills many decent jobs are hard to come by.

And then there are criminals who really are lousy people and just need to be removed from society. Telling the difference between the two is not a clear science, though certain murderers and white collar scammers may not be candidates for re-education as a solution.

[Eldorion]

I appreciate you going into more detail, Lance.

I don't know enough about the criminal justice system in the UK to comment on it specifically, but there are plenty of people in the US who complain about criminals having more rights than their victims. Those complaints usually come up in the context of trials before there is a conviction (eg, anti-rape activists who are upset because they think the standard of evidence in rape cases should be lower). I disagree with this because I think that innocent until proven guilty and related concepts like that are essential to a free society. We treat convicted criminals pretty terribly in this country, but I do think that the convicted still have rights and that the state of our prisons (especially but by no means only private prisons) is a national disgrace. Not sure if this is the same sort of thing you mean, though.

I am generally pro-immigration but I think there are legitimate reasons to have reservations about it (and globalization in general) without being a racist. I was pretty disheartened by the attitude towards Brexit voters in much of the media (and left-leaning people I know on forums and social media).

I think the European idea of multiculturalism has ended up having negative consequences that we are seeing now and much prefer the "melting pot" model of integration seen in America and other countries. However, I disagree with those in America who expect immigrants to immediately drop all cultural, religious, and linguistic connections to their home countries. Integration into a new culture ultimately takes several generations to complete but we've seen it happen here with multiple different waves of immigration from various parts of the world. I think that immigrants should be expected to obey the same laws as everyone else in the country they immigrated to and don't make excuses because they came from a different culture.

I am however in favor of affirmative action programs (by which I do not exclusively mean quotas) in some circumstances. Lyndon Johnson said it better than me: "You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say you are free to compete with all the others, and still just believe that you have been completely fair."

[Mrs Figg]

I know what Lance means when he uses the term 'pc brigade' and its nothing to do with basic rights as regards gay/trans/ or any group normally in a vulnerable position socially. don't want to put words in his mouth but what I think of as pc brigade is the repulsive way it has insinuated itself into UK society to the extent that Rotheram and Kids Company or mad mullahs being allowed to live freely in the country able to spout hate and demand Sharia law, and other travesties that were allowed to happen in the name of ethnic/racial sensibilities. for too long the pc brigade were allowed to peddle their agendas at the expense of the very people they were supposed to be helping. it ended up with the mass grooming and rape of children. that's what I mean by pc brigade.

[Lancebloke]

Eldo - we treat criminals pretty well here. There are plenty who reoffend for the sole purpose that they have a better life with better facilities inside than outside.

I am all for rehabilitation of offenders, to a point. For lesser crimes they should be made to serve an appropriate sentence during with time they are given an opportunity to gain skills that will mean they can have a stable life on the outside. If they reoffend once, try again. Reoffend twice and they go away for good and essentially forfeit the time and money spent on them and the comfortable lifestyle of it all.

For serious crimes... of which I would include obvious ones like murder and rape but also things like forced kidnapping, breaking in to houses and assaulting people, OTT violence, these should not have the chance as they completely change lots of other people's lives. Long sentences in basic living conditions should happen here. No playstations, Sky TV and all that rubbish.

For the top tier... murder and rape it should be life. Not 23 years or a bit less if the behave well. They die in prison!

Figgy - yes... that is along he lines I mean. It seems to have become so uncorrect to criticise things that it allows a lot of horrible stuff to go on until we end ourselves up with radicalised youth, people who take the law in time their own hands or victimisation of the actual victims themselves.

Stuff like people getting sued because a burglar hurt themselves or razor wire while climbing over some bodies fence... or because a home owner tried to defend themselves and ended up stabbing them but going to jail for it.

Going back to the original point I was trying to make... I think this is why the usually silent majority are now voting with the right because they are angry and don't feel like they have any other choice.