Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[Mrs Figg]

your comments remind me of Clement Attlee he thought he was dealing with normal human beings. I would wipe the lot of them off the face of the earth, no ifs, no buts. They are far worse than the Nazis. how can you deal with evil? it would be mad to appease them.

[Pettytyrant101]

your comments remind me of Clement Attlee- Figg

Pish. The situations are not even comparable. (Besides Attlee gets a bad rap- there is good reason historically to see his tactic not as appeasement but as a delaying tactic because the UK was nowhere ready for a war and needed to build up arms)

And we've tried the just hate them, shoot them, bomb them approach for the last ten years- all its done is brought us to this horrendous point with almost certainly more horror to follow.

Doing more of the same is not going produce a different result- who was said the definition of madness was to repeat the same steps over and over but expect a different result?

[Bluebottle]

Einstein.

He also said only two things were infinite, the Universe and human stupidity. And he wasn't sure about the Universe.

[Pettytyrant101]

[David H]

Not Einstein, or Benjamin Franklin, or any of the others that quote is sometimes attributed to.  That "Definition of Insanity"quote seems to come from the Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous literature of the 1960's and 70's, but it really exploded as a Conservative talking point about 15 years ago, about the same time Rush Limbaugh was going through rehab. Concidence? You be the judge...

In fact, "to repeat the same steps over and over but expect a different result" is nowhere near the definition of Insanity or Madness. Look it up. It's actually pretty close to the definition of words like Determination and Persistence however.

[Bluebottle]

“When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.”
― Albert Einstein

[Eldorion]

your comments remind me of Clement Attlee he thought he was dealing with normal human beings. I would wipe the lot of them off the face of the earth, no ifs, no buts. They are far worse than the Nazis. how can you deal with evil? it would be mad to appease them.

What do people mean when they call IS worse than the Nazis?  IS has done a lot of horrible shit that is comparable to the Nazis in many ways but the difference scale alone makes this comparison bizarre to me.

But even if we run with this comparison, the Western Allies didn't respond to WWII by wiping every Nazi off the face of the Earth, and Germany, Europe, and the world is better off today for it.  Certainly there were many Nazis who deserved to be punished and many of them were (though plenty of them escaped too), but rebuilding Germany was ultimately better for everyone, including the Allies, then wiping out (or even just imprisoning) everyone connected to or complicit in the Nazi regime.  As shitty as that feels on a certain moral level...

[Mrs Figg]

The Nazis didn't kill their own people, the Nazis didn't destroy other peoples culture and heritage because they wanted to deny it had happened. (they stole it instead) The Nazis didn't destroy works of art because they felt culturally inadequate in the face of history. The Nazis didn't film their enemies throats being slit. the Nazis observed the Geneva convention and didn't kill all POW. The Nazis didn't take underage brides or lure young girls into becoming sex slaves. The Nazis didn't shoot at the Red Cross. not defending Nazis just the difference in basic humanity. IS don't count as basic humanity.

[Mrs Figg]

your comments remind me of Clement Attlee- Figg

Pish. The situations are not even comparable. (Besides Attlee gets a bad rap- there is good reason historically to see his tactic not as appeasement but as a delaying tactic because the UK was nowhere ready for a war and needed to build up arms)

And we've tried the just hate them, shoot them, bomb them approach for the last ten years- all its done is brought us to this horrendous point with almost certainly more horror to follow.

Doing more of the same is not going produce a different result- who was said the definition of madness was to repeat the same steps over and over but expect a different result?

they have forfeited their rights as human beings. ((( I am in a bloodthirsty mood, maybe its better if I calmed down before replying,)))

[halfwise]

And yet we must remember

"There are hundreds of terrorist attacks in Europe every year. The ones that immediately fill the headlines of every news outlet, however, are the ones carried out by Muslims — not the ones carried out by ethno-nationalists or far-right extremists, which happen to be much more frequent."

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/our_terrorism_double_standard_after_paris_lets_stop_blaming_muslims_and_take_a_hard_look_at_ourselves/

I'd still call ISIL the most vile organization on the planet, but we have to be careful about getting too self-righteous.

[Mrs Figg]

I think most people agree that this has little to do with Muslims. IS aren't Muslims, they are a death cult which use Islam for their propaganda.

[halfwise]

The problem is that many people are not making that distinction.

[Pettytyrant101]

Not sure if this should go here on a the tv thread- but just watched a BBC documentary- The Rise of Female Violence - some very interesting moments in it.
In England and Wales women are 15% of those arrested for violence- but only 5% end up in jail. And over 30% of domestic violence cases the woman is the violent one- but when it comes to prosecution less than 8% of defendants are female.
The female thugs spoken to in this docu were quite clear that they felt they could get away with a lot more than males could with the courts when it came to violence.

And in an interesting if not entirely scientific experiment they had two actors playing an arguing couple in public, in a park.
During the argument the man slaps the women- four people intervened.
When they reversed it, exact same circumstances, exact same argument only this time the woman slapped the man, almost no one even batted an eyelid let alone intervened.

So do we go easy on women who act violently? Both as individuals and as a society through our courts?
Would you intervene if you saw a woman hitting a man? Would you intervene if you saw a man hitting a woman?

Is this different in other countries?

[bungobaggins]

Would you intervene if you saw a woman hitting a man? Would you intervene if you saw a man hitting a woman?

To be totally honest I don't think I would intervene in either scenario. If things looked really bad I'd call the police.

[halfwise]

If a woman hit a man I'd assume he deserved it, and most of the time I'd be right.

[Pettytyrant101]

and most of the time I'd be right.- Halfwise

But would you be- going on the statistics domestic violence by women, in the UK at least, has been on a steady increase for a long time- and I am not talking the odd slap, I am talking full on assault, hospitalisations, stabbings ect.

The attitude you give here of 'he probably deserved it' seems to permeate to the courts too going on the stats again where convictions for violence by women are incredibly low compared to the amount of cases.
And comparably to men up on the same charges where conviction rates are high.

I should maybe clarify more the acted out scene in the docu- they couple are having an argument over a text on her phone- the man demands to see it, she refuses and says its only from her boss, he tries to physically take the phone from her as the arguing escalates, when she pulls the phone away from him he grabs her and strikes her on the face and takes the phone.

Then the exact same scenario is played out in reverse with her doing the yelling and striking.

[Mrs Figg]

If a woman hit a man I'd assume he deserved it, and most of the time I'd be right.

yep I think so too. I also think women hit men for different reasons than when men hit women. when women hit men its because they have been insulted or demeaned in some way. men hit women when they haven't got their own way and want to show power over the woman. I don't think women want to control men in the same way as we don't look upon men as our possessions to be used at will. I also think it takes a lot of provocation for a woman to hit a man as she knows he is stronger and if he hits back its going to end badly with injuries. most women know they wouldn't win a fight with a man, and that's why we have over the centuries used more subtle strategies for survival like emotional revenge rather than physical. if women had the same upper body strength as men, history would be very different.

[Pettytyrant101]

I also think women hit men for different reasons- Figg

You should watch that documentary Figg if you believe that. Those girls in London gangs are not doing the shit they do because they are poor oppressed women, its because they enjoy causing and inflicting pain on others and being dominant over them. And its violence perpetrated mainly against other women.

On the domestic abuse side there is a rising number of women being arrested for serious assaults on their partners, males partners in these cases, but the women rarely get the same sort of punishment from the courts a man would get inexactly the same scenario were it reversed- thats simply unjust and seems based in the sort of notion you espouse in your post above- thats it not the poor little weak womans fault, she's too weak to take on a man and she knows it, for her to hit him he must be really bad to her secretly and pushed her too do it by demeaning her. Its not her fault, her minds to feeble and emotional to be held responsible for her actions.

Bollocks. Some women are evil vicious violent bitches who enjoy causing misery, just as some men are evil vicious violent bastards who enjoy causing misery. And they should be treated just the same under the law.

[Mrs Figg]

a few thuggish females from a SMALL cross section of a SMALL part of London does not mean you can extrapolate that ALL women are thugs beating up men. this is patently absurd reasoning.

of course for goodness sake, ANYONE who uses violence should be held accountable in law. I fail to see how you can argue that I said otherwise. Overall and generally the percentage of male violence on women is higher than female on male violence. There may be an increase in female violence, but it is totally ridiculous to say that females are taking over as the most violent of the species. OF Course if you go to rough estates with girl gangs you are going to come across some horrible women, but you seem to be implying that this is a phenomenon across the entire female population. Are you suggesting that ladies from the Womens institure in Chipping Snodbury after tea and crumpets are gaily going home and whalloping their hapless hubbies with rolling pins? no they aren't.

[bungobaggins]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/11/15/cbss_john_dickerson_asks_democratic_candidates_if_they_use_the_phrase_radical_islam_none_will.html

Dem candidates refuse to use the term "radical islam." Dems are afraid to "offend" muslim Americans, even though a conservative view of islam would undoubtedly be incompatible with modern American liberalism?

[Pettytyrant101]

this is patently absurd reasoning.- Figg

It is. Which is why I suggested no such thing.

' it is totally ridiculous to say that females are taking over as the most violent of the species'

Again. I never said this or made this claim. My complaint is that the sort of excuses you list as to why women should be excused violent acts is exactly the sort of thinking which results in a mere 5% conviction rate for women arrested for violence . Where for the exact same type of violence the male conviction rate is much higher.
When you say women are demeaned more, women are provoked into it, they know men are stronger so if they do it they must be really pushed to it ect are excuses for acts of violence. Where there should be no excuses.
It would be like defending a man hitting a woman on the basis he has higher testosterone than her so its not his fault.

'you seem to be implying that this is a phenomenon across the entire female population'

It'd be easier if you just watched the documentary. They covered the rise in female domestic violence nationwide (England and Wales) and the rise of female gang violence separately, and the rise of female verbal abuse and threats via social media, again nationwide.
As with men the most frequent thing linked to the casual sort of violence is not being demeaned, not being oppressed, not being put down or abused, its simply alcohol.


'even though a conservative view of islam would undoubtedly be incompatible with modern American liberalism?' - Bungo

So is fundamental Christianity but you seem to have plenty of them in your country. And I don't see Republicans rushing to offend them by calling them all radicals.

[Mrs Figg]

My complaint is that the sort of excuses you list as to why women should be excused violent acts is exactly the sort of thinking which results in a mere 5% conviction rate for women arrested for violence .

first off. I didn't list anything. secondly. you are off your chump.

[Mrs Figg]

nice one!

[Pettytyrant101]

I didn't list anything.- Figg

Yes you did- 'women hit men its because they have been insulted or demeaned in some way...I also think it takes a lot of provocation for a woman to hit a man as she knows he is stronger.'

These are just excuses for violence. And makes it sound as if women are just poor souls only driven to violence by the awfulness of men. And that's a nonsense.

Nice one Anonymous

[Mrs Figg]

I didn't list anything.- Figg

Yes you did- 'women hit men its because they have been insulted or demeaned in some way...I also think it takes a lot of provocation for a woman to hit a man as she knows he is stronger.'

These are just excuses for violence. And makes it sound as if women are just poor souls only driven to violence by the awfulness of men. And that's a nonsense.

blah blah blah wimmin wimmin immin rolling pins rolling pins rolling pins, that's all I am hearing

Nice one Anonymous

yep its pretty cool. lets hope they do a cyber V for Vendetta