Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[halfwise]

The guy could write. Seven Pillars of Wisdom is a study in the writer's craft.

[Pettytyrant101]

So Corbyn did it, on the first ballot- heis the new Labour leader- the most left wing, non-conformist leader they have ever elected (And I include Michael Foot in that list!) this should be very interesting indeed.

[Pettytyrant101]

Most amazing statistic to do with Corbyn's election- and one that will be very amusing to watch play out- is that he got elected by the party membership and with the backing of the Unions- but he was only backed by 6% of the Parliamentary Party- the people he is now leader of.

Also interesting to see how each of the leader sof the Scottish parties have responded, Labours Kezia Dugdale said-

"Today shows politics has changed. People are calling for radical change and straight talk.
Jeremy's election shows that the party has listened to that call, and I look forward to working with him and meeting him to discuss his priorities later today.
I have already said that I want people to take another look at the Labour Party. I want to say that again today. I hope that those who were lost to us in the past will start to listen again as both Jeremy and I put forward radical policies that we hope will win back support for Labour.
We've now got the chance for a fresh start and new leadership in both Scotland and across the UK. I've said I want my leadership to be about shaking up the establishment in Scotland, and Jeremy wants to do the same across the UK.
What people want is real change - not just in their politics, but in their lives. Today offers the chance for that change."

The SNP response from Sturgeon was-

'We hope to work constructively with him in a progressive alliance against Tory austerity.
We also call on him to give an early commitment that Labour MPs will join the SNP in voting against the £100bn renewal of Trident.
However, the reality today is that, at a time when the country needs strong opposition to the Tories, Jeremy Corbyn leads a deeply, and very bitterly, divided party.
Indeed, if Labour cannot quickly demonstrate that they have a credible chance of winning the next UK general election, many more people in Scotland are likely to conclude that independence is the only alternative to continued Tory government.
In the meantime, it is clearer than ever that the only credible and united opposition to the Tories, north and south of the border, is the SNP."

Ruth Davidson, Scottish Conservatives said-

'"Mr Corbyn has made clear that, under his leadership, Labour will flee the centre ground for a hard-left comfort zone which promotes policies of the 1970s.
Even Andy Burnham has warned that by electing Jeremy Corbyn, the voting public will conclude that Labour has given up on being in government - and he's right.
This is especially true in Scotland where Jeremy Corbyn's flirtation with the SNP will worry all two million of our country's 'No' voters.
He refused to fight for our United Kingdom during the referendum because, in his own words, he was 'doing stuff' in London instead.
We need a strong Labour party to stand behind the UK. So I am urging Mr Corbyn to come to Scotland this week and state unequivocally that he'll do no deals with the SNP and will always fight to keep our United Kingdom together."

An intriguing mix- hope that this might mean a reversal in Scottish Labour politics and retaking left of centre ground back from the SNP, but Dugdale at heart s more Blairite than Corbynite.
Sturgeon uses the opportunity to bring up Trident and the upcoming vote, Corbyn is anti-Trident, will he make Labour that too now? And to lay down a challenge of sort to work with the SNP in the Commons (its hard to imagine a Corbyn led Labour party abstaining on a welfare bill as Labour just did).
And the Tories see in Corbyn a potential threat to the Union- if there is another vote and Labour come out for YES or choose to be neutral then thats a big game changer- had that happened last time no Brown intervention, no last minute pledge of devo-max and quite possibly a different result.

[Mrs Figg]

I bet Sturgeon is bricking it. took the wind out of her sails good and proper. Hence the querulous,

''many more people in Scotland are likely to conclude that independence is the only alternative to continued Tory government.''

er no they are not. its a once in a generation deal. they said NO. get over it.

[Pettytyrant101]

its a once in a generation deal. they said NO. get over it.- Figg

Sturgeon ha never said that- Salmond did once, she never has. Her position hjas always been no refrndum unless there is a material and obvious change in circumstances- such as England voting us out of Europe iof we vote to stay in.

An the most recent polls )conducted by Labour supporting newspaper the Daily Record shows support for another referendum before 2020 as being in the majority and that if it were held now 53% would now vote YES.
If you thin k the drive for independence has gone away you are very much mistaken, and the longer the Tories stay in power and act like Tries the more likely it becomes. And I cant see middle England voting Corbyn any time soon.

[Bluebottle]

It's odd how when there is one sane person in this entirely mad world, everyone seems to think he's insane..

"We don't have to be unequal. It does not have to be unfair, poverty isn't inevitable. Things can, and they will change."
Jeremy Corbyn

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34234442

[malickfan]

Not surprised Corbyn was elected as leader (though some of his policies sound a bit...dubious, and it may just be the media spreading sh*t but his opinions on the IRA make me kinda uncomfortable) but I'm not convinced a properly left leaning Labour party is really viable anymore in the UK ( in England particularly), after nearly 20 yrs of the center left New Labour, the wipeout in Scotland, and a i.m.o a definite move to the right across English politics, a true left wing alternative to the Tories may simply be irrelevant at the moment.

Then again I've never lived with a full Tory goverment so we'll wait and see...

[Mrs Figg]

its a once in a generation deal. they said NO. get over it.- Figg

Sturgeon ha never said that- Salmond did once, she never has. Her position hjas always been no refrndum unless there is a material and obvious change in circumstances- such as England voting us out of Europe iof we vote to stay in.

An the most recent polls )conducted by Labour supporting newspaper the Daily Record shows support for another referendum before 2020 as being in the majority and that if it were held now 53% would now vote YES.
If you thin k the drive for independence has gone away you are very much mistaken, and the longer the Tories stay in power and act like Tries the more likely it becomes. And I cant see middle England voting Corbyn any time soon.

there is no way in a snowballs chance in hell that any British PM is going to go through that again any time this century or the next. for all the wittering from wee Jimmy Krankie and co. its not going to happen.

[Pettytyrant101]

Not sure how they stop it- any UK PM who - if the SNP stand for election on a platform of a referendum and get a landslide win- said they were just ignoring the wishes of the Scottish people is in for a very tricky time indeed. If not impossible time, with uprisings in Scotland all over the place very likely.

[Mrs Figg]

I reckon Corbyn will recoup some Scottish seats before long.

[Pettytyrant101]

I am not so sure- yeah is left of centre social policy stuff will go down well, but he has serious problems regarding his views on Ireland when it comes to Scotland and its sectarian issues (I think he is way out his depth on that one), he took no part at all in the referendum debate, preferring to stay in London to do more 'important things'- that wont play well either.
And the SNP do well because they have left of centre social policies, backed by right of centre economics. Corbyn is left, left. And there is no more obvious an appetite in Scotland than in England for far left economic policies.

More likely the SNP will try to use his Labour party to block Trident renewal and to vote down further austerity measures, whilst playing up Corbyn political weaknesses.

It also depends if he can get his own party to actually back his policies, or if six months down the line the Blarites form a coup.

[Mrs Figg]

they could try a coup but they will end up further alienating Labour voters. they already look weak and pettish flouncing out of their jobs. weak, spineless and beige. I had high hopes for Chukka Khan but he welched out, and I feel really sorry for Andy, he looks like a lost puppy.

[malickfan]

I just can't really see a majority of Labour MP's backing him, he may have had the support of enough members to get elected, but will he have support from the ordinary public?

[Pettytyrant101]

The new Deputy- a stalwart of Blair and Brown era oddly enough, and known as a bit of bulldog bruiser, Tom Watson was interviewed on Marr this morning, just watched it on the iplayer- interesting interview given the Deputy supports NATO and the retention of Trident and staying in Europe- all of which Corbyn, his leader, doesn't.

[Mrs Figg]

I have the distinct impression its going back to basics time, the nasty taste left by Blair and all he stands for has been swept away. its a cleansing wound licking period for Labour. its been a terrible year and people just couldn't face Ed Milliband or anyone remotely like him. labour has to get its moral centre back and Jeremy is the man to do it. I think he will put enthusiasm back into politics, it reminds me of being an earnest socialist when I was a kid, he is the kind of guy that makes people feel those things, idealism, enthusiasm and protecting the vulnerable. I cant imagine anyone at more polar opposites to Osbourne. politics is going to get interesting.

[Bluebottle]

This might be a stupid question, but why are everyone harping on about Corbyns politics being to left leaning, while the conservatives are just as right leaning, if not more? It seems a discrepancy in how one handles different political views. Our world has now been so skewed by capitalism and multinational corporations that someone actually expounding Labour policies gets called out on it.

[Pettytyrant101]

Difference is some of Corbyn's previous voiced stances are not just left of centre, they are left of any previous Labour government in this country ever.

For example he wants to renationalise industry- fuck that, I remember nationalised industry it was a stagnant disaster- bugger going back to only having 1 telecommunications provider, or 1 broadcaster, or 1 energy company- yeah prices will go down at one end, but union demands, higher wages, shorter working hours will go up at the other until the tax payer is paying more in subsidies than they are saving in costs.

And things are really wobbly in NI and if Corbyn goes there and says some of the stuff about the IRA he has said in the past it will only cause massive potential damage and inflame what is currently a very precarious situation there. And that's playing with real fire, the explosive sort.

[Bluebottle]

Well, we can all express controversial views at points, but I'm sure he would qualify both those statements when asked to clarify. More than anything I think the right swing in English politics needed a counteraction. And Corbyn might be the shock English society needs. I just hope he's up for it.

[Bluebottle]

Case in point. He's talking some specific sectors, like rail. (Which privatization really made a mess out of.)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/09/jeremy-corbyn-denies-would-bring-back-clause-iv

[Pettytyrant101]

The prblem with nationalisation in the Uk is it always goes the same way- government takes over, bureaucracy increases therefore costs, unions get a stronger say, wages become higher.
As a result, and with the government now one of the largest employers in the land, inflation starts to creep up, house prices follow, then the price of goods in shops.
The nationalised industry, now open to constant government committee scrutiny in a away no private sector firm is, will increase in running costs which standards of delivery begin to fall.
Before to long inflation is high enough that demands for higher wages, backed by now powerful unions, means a clash between workers and government.
The last time that happened it effective ended Steel works, coal mining and ship building in the UK and led to the 'winter of discontent' -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent

[Bluebottle]

And when you denationalize the workers get fired, the companies become simply about maximizing profit, and large previously commonly held assets that belonged to the state end up in the hands of the few and already rich.

There's a reason you have oligarks in Russia, it's because they denationalized industry, technology and national resources when the Soviet Union collapsed.

It's a process with two sides when it comes to consequences to say the least.

[Pettytyrant101]

Oh I agree, neither extreme is any good right or left, extremes never are.
What you want is a balance between what the state can and should run- I am all in favour of a state run national health service paid for by everyone's collective taxes, I am in favour of a state pension scheme, of paying local council taxes (though badly in need of reform currently) for vital services, like refuse collection, I was strongly against the selling off of the Post Office, as I believe it too is a vital service, and one which should whose service should not be a lottery of geography.
And there is a middle ground to be had- I would have no objection to the state running a bank o two in the public name, but not if they were the only banks on the market. The private sector does have a vital role to pay, its fair enough to talk of multi-nationals and their treatment of everything from workers to environment (economic and environmental) but the private sector is also made up of thousands of small companies employing only 1-40 workers or so.
And once you have nationalised industry its only a matter of time before the government, via union pressure, are also employing the cleaners and the like internally, and those little companies start going to the wall as the nationalised industry eats up more and more of the labour force- we've been here before and it was not pretty.

[halfwise]

This is why important industries like utilities need to be regulated.  There's no perfect system, but free enterprise with reasonable oversight seems to be the best we can do. I'm not sure if our denationalizing the post office was a good or bad thing, but it does exist under governmental reins and seems to be doing ok.

[Bluebottle]

Yup, just that. A balance. I don't think Corbyn is too far off that going by his comments though.

[Pettytyrant101]

At the moment its hard to tell- how far will he bend to make compromise with his party?
In the past he has been a bit too blatant controversy courting for my liking- inviting the leaders of the IRA, a then terrorist organisation, to Parliament days after they had killed innocent people in a bombing is not going to play- imagine he does that after another London bombing?
Now I'm all for talking with the terrorists- most conflicts are eventually ended in paperwork- but until you've got a deal that by necessity should be done off the public stage, not for headlines, publicity or point scoring.