Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[Pettytyrant101]

There hasn't been a vote to speak out on. The vote comes today at the end of the SNP led debate. And Sturgeon was the first UK leader to say we should take n refugees, and that Scotland would take 1000 straight away as a starting point- Cameron only came out with his plan to take about 2 people in a day for the next five years (knowing full well by then other countries will have given them refuge) two days later.

And this is not having emotions pulled- these people are refugees, that little boy carried dead up the beach was a real dead boy, with a grieving father. They are fleeing an enemy who will smash in to their home, rape the women and possibly children, and then torture and murder everyone there. Or alternative the government forces are coming and they are indiscriminately shelling and shooting up entire buildings. This is just what is happening.
And we cant just turn our back on the innocent people feeling it and pretend its not happening, not when we are still one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We have a duty, both moral and in international law.

[halfwise]

It's rough but I have to agree with Petty. I walk by homeless people all the time, and usually try to avoid doing anything, it's just the selfish instinct. But at the very least you should feel bad that you are not doing anything. It's the first step - then when a leader steps up (like Angela Merkel) all those who have been feeling bad will fall in behind her. This is what Germany has done. They have a leader with guts and compassion. People often just need a leader in order to do the right thing.

The homeless have shelters and food banks, and those who feel the twinge of guilt usually end up supporting them. I know I do. The refugees deserve no less, but it takes time for such organizations to spring up and become found.

[Mrs Figg]

There hasn't been a vote to speak out on. The vote comes today at the end of the SNP led debate. And Sturgeon was the first UK leader to say we should take n refugees, and that Scotland would take 1000 straight away as a starting point- Cameron only came out with his plan to take about 2 people in a day for the next five years (knowing full well by then other countries will have given them refuge) two days later.

And this is not having emotions pulled- these people are refugees, that little boy carried dead up the beach was a real dead boy, with a grieving father. They are fleeing an enemy who will smash in to their home, rape the women and possibly children, and then torture and murder everyone there. Or alternative the government forces are coming and they are indiscriminately shelling and shooting up entire buildings. This is just what is happening.
And we cant just turn our back on the innocent people feeling it and pretend its not happening, not when we are still one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We have a duty, both moral and in international law.

actually they were all safe in Turkey. They weren't fleeing from anybody. But I agree we should help the refugees, the children, old and sick, the ones the strong and healthy leave behind to rot. I think rich Arab countries have more of a duty, but nobody is slagging them off for not doing anything.

[halfwise]

Very true - the oil states should be taking the lead on this.

[David H]

Agreed about the oil states. I also think there's a responsibility that lies with the oil corporations who built the unstable structures and got rich off them. It's the Empire game under a corporate mask.

[Pettytyrant101]

they were all safe in Turkey- Figg

Not so, those camps are not safe, they are overwhelmed, lacking shelter, clean water, medicines and the psychiatrists and other tools necessary to help begin dealing with the thousands of orphaned children. Nor are the camps a long term solution, and the people in them didnt decide they fancied a holiday in a refugee camp one day- they were driven from their homes for fear of their lives and the lives of their families.
Nor can we expect Turkey to just absorb hundreds of thousands of refugees whilst we turn the other way.

I agree on the oil states- but so long as the US is willing to let Saudi do as it pleases with no come back then theres little chance there of them acting responsibly.
I noticed again various runners in the US election are banging on about Iran- funny they dont mention Saudi who are much worse but control all that US cash so best keep quiet their America.

[azriel]

Just curious thats all,
These refugees had a chance in Turkey & are moving to Greece, Ive heard, ( tho its maybe rumour ? ) that Germany offered to take some in but the Kurds refused ? I heard of a demonstration in this country about this problem & that one man interviewed said " they were safe in Turkey so why move ? " He stated that they simply want the benefits from this country that you dont get anywhere else. To be honest Ive not paid attention to any form of News. be it news papers, TV or radio. I do this for my own peace & quiet tho that doesnt mean I dont care ! I dont get how humans still want to hurt each other in cold callous ways ? Yep, Ive got rose tinted glasses on but, as I dont feel the urge to go around setting fire to homes & murdering people I often wonder why others do ? You should never judge people by your own standards, often you will be disappointed.

[David H]

I just wrote a long rant that deleted itself.

Maybe I'll try again later. This subject just makes me too sad.

[Mrs Figg]

I am curious.
I find it very strange that all these refugees head north when war starts. they head for countries that a lot of Muslims are supposed to despise as being full of corrupt kaffars. why don't they head for other Muslim countries, rich ones, ones with low populations. I thought they were all 'brothers' against the unbeliever. But no, they all head for northern Christian countries. I wonder why that is. because when they get to said Christian country they don't mix with the native population, they don't like the native population, and (a few) of them want to blow up the native population. so why don't they head for the Gulf States, other Arab countries? do they think they wont get a warm welcome from their 'brothers'?

[Eldorion]

Gee, it's almost like Muslims aren't one monolithic bloc, and that the refugees are _fleeing_ the extremists who think in the way you describe.

[bungobaggins]

monolithic bloc

[Mrs Figg]

Gee, it's almost like Muslims aren't one monolithic bloc, and that the refugees are _fleeing_ the extremists who think in the way you describe.

yeah but why do they all flee north? whats wrong with Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar? they are giving Germany money to build 800 mosques.

[David H]

I met and talked with maybe 100 refugees fleeing north through Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary into Austria in late March and April of 2003 as the "Coalition of the Willing" was invading Iraq and CNN was joyfully making predictions on when we would assassinate Saddam. I met them in train stations and in traveler's hostels, heading north and west as I was working my way slowly south and east.

It was heartbreaking.  Most of them were well educated and doing their best to stay neatly dressed, but with all their possessions in a few cardboard boxes . They'd grown up with a dream of Western Democracy. Many of them had worked for oil corporations or other international corporations. They had friends in the West, and they were hoping to find support there.  Many were small family groups trying to travel together.

We were being told at the time that "they hate us", but I saw now hate.  Anger, yes. Betrayal, absolutely! But mostly numbness, like everything they'd believed in had been yanked out from under them. They couldn't understand how we could claim to love Democracy and still shore up corrupt dictators.  They couldn't understand what "Coalition of the Willing" meant.  They couldn't understand why anybody even believed Saddam had nuclear weapons. They couldn't understand how we could preach human rights and then for no discernible reason descend on them with "Shock and Awe" that made the Battle of Britain look like Gandalf's fireworks.

I don't know about now. At that time, not all of them were heading to Europe and North America. It was mostly the people who had been raised on the myth of Western Democracy that were coming our direction. I can't help feeling that was mostly our fault. I helped then as well as I could, and I'll do what i can now.

[Pettytyrant101]

My small home town has announced today its bringing in 20 refugees right away as a starting point, drop in the ocean of course, but if every small town in Scotland takes between 20 and 40 thats a decent start at helping them out.

[halfwise]

Scotland has always been a leader in the international social cause arena. Back during the apartheid sanctions period, Glasgow renamed the street the South African embassy was on to 'Nelson Mandela Place'. So if they wanted to get their mail, everyone in the embassy had to write Nelson Mandela's name in the address.

Heard this from Craig Ferguson, who referred to it as an example of typical Scottish passive aggression when it comes to social issues. Cheeky buggers.

[Pettytyrant101]

Yeah Glasgow in particular did a lot to try to help the cause of a free South Africa, including flying the SA flag from the city chambers building in defiance of Thatcher banning it.

[bungobaggins]

[bungobaggins]

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/World-Trade-Center-Rainbow-Photo-Eve-of-September-11-Ben-Sturner-326532051.html

[halfwise]

Thanks, it hadn't sunk in yet that it was the anniversary.

[Pettytyrant101]

A terrible act, a terrible day.

2,996 souls lost....but at least 1.5million equally valuable souls lost to America and its Allies hasty revenge....and still counting.

[bungobaggins]

I try not to lump the American people in the same group as its leaders. There's definitely justification for Afghanistan, although we also needed to confront Saudi Arabia, something we'll probably never do.

I was in seventh grade, second hour keyboarding class when I found out. Teachers avoided talking about it all day. I didn't even know what Islam was. My first exposure to that religion was an act of unbelievable extremism.

[Pettytyrant101]

I didn't even know what Islam was. My first exposure to that religion was an act of unbelievable extremism.- Bungo

And the first exposure to the US many of those involved had was a country which spoke of freedom and democracy whilst supporting and enabling the dictator who was brutalising them to continue to do so indefinitely.

But I don't think you were alone in your ignorance. I was at a friends house when it came on the TV, following the first plane, and so witnessed the second hit and the sheer horror of that moment.
But about an hour or so of news later and American after American variations on the saying the same thing; "Why?" "Who would want to do this, to us? Why?"

Compare this to the exchange which passed between my friend and I as soon as it became apparent this was no accident but terrorism-

Friend- Well that's been coming for a long time.

Me (sadly and resignedly) - Aye, it has.

To a large degree the American public are culpable as well in all that has followed -  the public backed the government giving arms and money to known dictators because you were more afraid of Russia than you were upholding what you preached. And afterwards you were more concerned with protecting oil and energy concerns than you were upholding what you preached and because you were afraid of Iran.


If you had grown up in a country where for the past two or three generations a crazy despot has been in control who can have you killed or tortured on a whim, and you cant do anything about it or rise up against them because they have the backing of the worlds only super power- you might find America hard to love, or believe when it says 'we come in th ename of peace, freedom and democracy'.
People who hear you preach one thing, whilst practising another were always going to call you "The Great Liar".
On US international affairs since the end of WW2 its hard to argue with that definition.

[halfwise]

Not a good introduction. You have to rub shoulders with folks to get the proper feeling, and I'm afraid most Americans don't get that chance. It's a highly skewed group of academics/students that I meet, admittedly, but they are all sweethearts.

[halfwise]

Most of US policy is only defensible from either economic or Cold War standpoints, unfortunately. Paradoxically we might be perceived better if we stop preaching sweetness and light. Same thing goes for many preachers, I suppose.

[David H]

To be fair, America wasn't the first and wasn't alone. Go back and read T E Lawrence about the partition of the Middle East after the end of WWI and the fall of the Ottomans. You can see it all coming....