US General Election 2016

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Post by halfwise Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:00 pm

bungobaggins wrote:CNN decided to reward the man who bum rushed Trump the other day by putting him on the news. Absolutely disgusting and sad, and will only encourage more"protesters" to do the same.


This may be a sort of retaliation for Trump saying in effect he'll "reward" the old guy who punched the protester by paying his legal fees.

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:35 pm

all this and the utter fascism in the UK makes me swing violently from rage to lethargy and I cant make my mind up which is better or worse. I think the world has gone mad when people like Trump and Cruz, Cameron and Duncan Smith are in power, or supported massively, but then part of me thinks fuck it, its too much I cant take any more of this stuff as its beyond belief. Reality is weirder than fiction where trump is concerned and people are dying in the UK because if the 'arbeit macht frei' mentality of this UK government. the extreme right is having a field day and nobody is bothered. I can feel myself shrinking into a safety bubble of fuck everything to buggery. The left are loons and the right are evil reptiles.
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Post by halfwise Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:52 pm

I think what's happening is the whole world system is starting to burst at the seams and people are scared. And when scared, they go into "Us against Them" mode. And "them" runs the gamut from any foreigner to poor people.

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Post by David H Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:07 pm

I agree with both of you.
If you give in to the anger and join the "Us vs. Them Mob" on either side, you've just handed your personal freedom to some scary people pale

but if you give up altogether, you've already lost Sad

Edit: Humor is what lets me keep walking the thin line between the two, and that's why it looks like I'll be voting for Chris Walken again this year :carrot:

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:32 pm

well yeah. either you laugh or cry. No
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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:34 pm

I think maybe that's why Fantasy, virtual reality, and Gaming is so big, its an escape route.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:39 pm

{{{An escape route from what?- it cant be from reality, a world in which Trump is front runner for Republican nominee for President of America and of the Free World, and is doing so by invoking all the worst traits of the American nation and not having any policies outside of the realm of make-believe, is not reality. It just can't be No }}}

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Post by halfwise Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:48 pm

Can't be what reality?

US General Election 2016 - Page 35 Ted-smokes-weed-o

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:33 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{{An escape route from what?- it cant be from reality, a world in which Trump is front runner for Republican nominee for President of America and of the Free World, and is doing so by invoking all the worst traits of the American nation and not having any policies outside of the realm of make-believe, is not reality. It just can't be No }}}

At least Trump doesn't seem to have read The Prince by Machiavelli. Which means he has all the subtlety of a sledge hammer. Unlike the two faced spineless conniving of the Tories, who obviously have read The Prince.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:47 pm

{{{{Now that may be true Figg, but we dont have this sort of problem, Trump is making Cruz seem reasonable- here is a 'pastor' speaking at a conference to which Cruz gave the key-note address, in fact Cruz is introduced to the stage by this pastor guy after he says this stuff-



No }}}}}

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Post by halfwise Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:58 pm

Except that Leviticas is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If it helps, remember that Ted Cruz is the most hated politician among other politicians. The Senate republicans would not even let him get a 'second' on many of his motions recently. They recognize a snake. Why so many voters don't is scary, but he's not going to get the nomination.

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:00 pm

I don't think even Trump could make Cruz seem sane. If I had to choose I would go for Trump. He may be a dangerous buffoon but at least he isn't a so called 'Christian' who is really a dangerous fascist religious nutter. Cruz is scary.
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Post by halfwise Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:03 pm

Yeah, I don't think I'd leave the country if Trump was in charge, but Cruz? Becoming a boat person looks tempting.

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Post by bungobaggins Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:17 pm

halfwise wrote:
bungobaggins wrote:CNN decided to reward the man who bum rushed Trump the other day by putting him on the news. Absolutely disgusting and sad, and will only encourage more"protesters" to do the same.


This may be a sort of retaliation for Trump saying in effect he'll "reward" the old guy who punched the protester by paying his legal fees.

Ok, so CNN has taken it upon themselves to retaliate against Trump? Or are they just exploiting the situation for views? Regardless, this man should be in jail.

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Post by bungobaggins Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:19 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/stop-blaming-trump-supporters-for-campaign-violence/2016/03/14/33e45b7e-e9f1-11e5-b0fd-073d5930a7b7_story.html

In recent days, Donald Trump supporters have been demonized as some sort of racist mob spun up by Trump’s racially tinged rhetoric. Former Environmental Protection Agency head and New Jersey governor Christine Todd Whitman declared: “If you were told that Mexicans are rapists and criminals . . . and you are walking down the street and see them in your community, people are going to do things.”

Except for one problem: Trump supporters are not targeting Mexicans walking down the street with violence. They are not even showing up and disrupting Bernie Sanders when he spews socialist claptrap.

The clashes we have seen so far have almost exclusively been at Trump events.

Why is that? Because organized groups of left-wing agitators intentionally come to Trump rallies to provoke his supporters. According to the New York Times, the protesters “fling themselves to the ground, forcing law enforcement officers — often outmanned and overwhelmed — to drag them away. They also shout and curse, making obscene gestures.” They should not be surprised when they get a reaction. Walk into a blue-collar bar and start taunting people that way, and you are likely to leave without some of your teeth.

The fact is, if the protesters were holding peaceful protests outside his venues, there would be no violence.

What we are witnessing is the latest example of the American left’s totalitarian instinct to shut down speech that it finds abhorrent. Trump is not the only speaker to be driven off a college campus in recent years. In 2013, student protesters forced Ben Carson to cancel his planned commencement speech at Johns Hopkins University. In 2014, student activists forced Brandeis University to cancel a commencement-day speech by author and activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Also in 2014, protesters forced former secretary of state Condoleezza Rice to cancel her commencement speech at Rutgers University, declaring that “war criminals shouldn’t be honored” by the school.

What do these speakers all have in common? They are a) black and b) conservative. If the Trump protests were about race, then why are left-wing activists equally insistent on stopping black speakers with views they don’t like? Rice didn’t call for a Muslim ban, but she is just as unacceptable to the radical left as Trump.

This is not to suggest that Trump is blameless in the ugliness that is unfolding. Far from it. A responsible leader tries to calm a volatile situation. Trump has been doing the opposite for months — egging on his supporters to clash with the protesters. In August, Trump warned that if protesters tried to disrupt his rallies, “I don’t know if I’ll do the fighting myself, or if other people will.” In November, he said a protester who disrupted one of his events “should have been roughed up,” and in February, he declared of another, “I’d like to punch him in the face.” Also in February, he told a rally, “If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them. . . . I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees.”

That is highly irresponsible. But Trump understands that it is also why his supporters love him. Unlike Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) — who let Black Lives Matter protesters take away his microphone — Trump does not back down when people try to stop him from speaking. His supporters see a man who stands up for himself and believe he won’t let the United States get pushed around either.

The vast majority of his supporters are not violent or bigots. One reporter covering his campaign described them as “almost unfailingly courteous.” They are ordinary people who see their jobs, their country, their ability to earn a fair wage and support their families slipping away — and feel abandoned by their party’s establishment. They are desperate for a savior and think they have found one in Trump. When they hear Republican presidential candidates and pundits blame them for the violence, they are alienated even more.

Yes, Trump’s call for a Muslim ban, his spewing of conspiracies theories about 9/11 and Iraq, his embrace of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Middle East dictators, and his calls for protesters to be “roughed up” are all repulsive. But for many Americans, the left’s smash-mouth tactics are repulsive as well.

Trump understands this, which is why he is milking the protests to his advantage. He is using them to rally blue-collar America by saying we’re not going to take this anymore — we are not going to bow to the Alinskyite tactics of the radical left.

And the protesters are playing right into his hands.

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Post by bungobaggins Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:35 pm


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Post by halfwise Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:39 pm

That does put a balance on things.  Except for abortion clinic protests I think it's fair to say liberal protestors tend to be more confrontational than right wing protestors.

But if Trump hadn't been encouraging the reactions of his followers, CNN would not have been interviewing the guy who rushed the stage.  The fact that walked into what he knew would be a hostile situation made him newsworthy in their eyes.


Last edited by halfwise on Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:41 pm

{{{All well and good Bungo to a degree (in my view not a huge one- Trump as you say has been hugely inappropriate in egging on his supporters to violence against protesters but organised protest is still protest and fair game in a free speech nation), but still doesn't solve the fundamental puzzle- what does Trump stand for? What is is his domestic policy and how is he going to implement what we do know of it? (Such as removing families of illegal immigrants who presumably will not all go meekly- how will doing this help to bring the US people together as Trump now claims he will? It will only outrage the left and the middle when their tv screens are full of screaming children being dragged from their homes by armed men and increase divisions.)

What is his health care plan? Is it socialist? Capitalist? has it changed since five minutes ago yet?
What are his taxation plans for ordinary workers and wall street and the super rich?
What is his foreign policy (and again the bits we do know about- the wall and making Mexico pay, forcing China to renegotiate ect ripping up Iran deal, making private companies relocate jobs to the US, bombing ISIS out of existence, banning all Muslims from entering the US- how is he going to achieve any of them? They are pie in the sky. They aren't real policies they are sound bites). He is just telling the right what they want to hear for votes.
And he will change what he says daily if need to be to achieve it.
And will whatever he says on any of these things be the same thing he is saying tomorrow?
What does he actually believe?}}}

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Post by halfwise Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:45 pm

He believes in himself, and since that's backed by being a billionaire, other people believe in him. It doesn't matter what his policies are, he's stridently pro-american and confident, and that's what people are voting for.

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Post by bungobaggins Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:01 am

I've read through his tax proposal and health care plan on his website.

I don't know all the answers to your questions on Trump's foreign policy, but this statement:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:banning all Muslims from entering the US

is false and not what Trump proposed. He said Muslim Americans who are abroad can return, but those coming as refugees, or foreign citizens, or from high risk areas (Syria) shouldn't be let in until the government can "figure out what is going on." Yeah, probably not the most clear way to put it. But I think he meant not until they have a better way to screen people coming in who may be potential terrorists.

And he will change what he says daily if need to be to achieve it.

Sounds like someone else running for president... But seriously, if he starts to say things I don't like I won't support him. Or, if he is elected, and after four years things haven't gotten better, I'll vote against him. In my eyes he's the best shot we have at a fresh start.

how is he going to achieve any of them? They are pie in the sky. They aren't real policies they are sound bites

Have you read any of his policy proposals on his website?

And Petty, I'm not going to get into a Who-Thread-back-and-forth with you on every little detail of his proposals. I like his health care and tax policies, I think he has the personality and negotiation skills to get what is best for the country, and I know that with his business experience he knows what works and what doesn't work for American businesses and job creation.

I'm just going to leave it at that and you can rip me to shreds, but I'll just stay out of the election thread.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:37 am

'and you can rip me to shreds, but I'll just stay out of the election thread'- Bungo

{{{I wasn't planning to rip anyone to shreds, save perhaps Trump a bit, but he is a politician and should be scrutinised, but least of all you Bungo. Nor do I get why you feel the need to leave the thread. scratch
And I dont just think its Trump being given a free ride on policy scrutiny either, it all of them, its been a personality contest instead, but Trump is the most obvious as in every debate I have seen so far he has changed position on almost every major point in every debate. At least with Cruz I think he is nuts, but he clearly believes in it all and has stuck to his personal red lines. Trump, I don't see any real conviction to any idea, or plan, he seems to abandon them as quickly as he thinks of them}}}

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Post by halfwise Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:40 am

I'll go through the policy on Trump's website one by one.

Health care:
1. Not sure I agree with the statement that 'nobody should be forced to buy insurance unless they want to'. The people who don't are mainly the poor, therefore they don't get preventative care, and end up in the much more expensive emergency room. Now remember, under Obamacare the poor were NOT buying healthcare, they were being supplemented by the government, but they did have to have a policy.
2. Sale of Insurance across state lines: agree 100%
3. Deduct insurance costs from taxes: also agree
4. Health savings accounts: are we actually not allowed to do this now? False statement.
5. Price Transparency: I believe we have this.
6. Grants to States: we have this, though some states for totally boneheaded political reasons refuse to take them.
7. Drugs and free markets: This is a question of how much the FDA is being controlled by the drug companies. Two edged sword: my understanding is that more research gets done in america because of the higher prices basically created by the barrier to international drugs. That's not really why the barrier is there, that's the result. Of course, this means Americans suffer from MUCH higher drug prices than anywhere else. If there's a deal to be made, it's to slightly elsewhere and lower them tremendously in the US so there's still research money available.

So in the end, I see one thing I strongly disagree with, several things I agree with, but no plan for the guy dying in the street Trump was talking about. Is this the state medicaid?

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Post by halfwise Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:45 am

Tax Plan:

All I can say is, doesn't this dramatically reduce the tax revenue? Right now the highest bracket is 38% I believe, now it will drop to 25%. Perhaps closing loopholes on the very rich will close this (they DO have most of the wealth) but I'd like to see those loopholes named. Right now I don't see what is being closed.

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Post by Orwell Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:10 am

Been keeping half an eye, sometimes a whole eye, and some times two eyes on this thread but any evil influence of 'the cursed thread' appears non-existent. So freely continue with your discussion points, Bungo, and definitely vote however you wish. Not everyone will agree on all things or all nominees, but so long as we continue to address our barbs or bouquets in the direction of the presidential contenders, and not each other, all is sweet. Very Happy

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Post by Eldorion Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:18 am

After the failure of their "Against Trump" feature, the National Review is now taking the novel approach of trying to argue against Trump by, uh, comparing the working class to dogs and advocating for the depopulation of an entire region of the country.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/432796/working-class-whites-have-moral-responsibilities-defense-kevin-williamson

Buckley would be proud (no really, he probably would be).
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